Flight school update and questions

[Hagar]

I'm sure you know your market far better than me & you've obviously done your homework.. Things are very different in the UK & I have no wish to send this very interesting thread off-topic. I would just like to address a couple of points.

As for statistical anomalies ? (80 year-old pilots, or 5-hour solo helo-pilots)(I already know I won't be flying past 60 for health reasons).. that's exactly what they are.. Not the norm.. and not a reference for setting the standards.

Statistical anomalies? I'm sure there are far more 80 year-old pilots flying in the US than in the UK. Whether they should be is a different matter. I was attempting to point out that passing the strictest medical is no guarantee against a sudden heart attack or other incapacity whatever your age. If this happened to any pilot flying alone it would have severe consequences. I'm also quite certain that many young students go solo well within the average & 5 hours would not be unusual on a concentrated course of instruction. This would depend on how regularly they have lessons.

The silly thing is (like you point out)... few people will get signed off by an instructor after only minimum training. Most will end up with the same amount of hours, and dual instruction, as a regular pilot, taking regular training. They'll end up with nearly the same commitment of time and money, anyway. And actually it will end up costing more when they realize this.. as the training is not 100% transferable. When you consider the big picture; how much time and money flying will absorb; that difference twixt a Light Sport license and a regular PPL, is nothing. The only way you're going to be able to fly a Light Sport airplane, often enough to do it safely, is if you buy one. That kinda shoots the "money saving" aspect down... Just get a regular PPL, and put this Light Sport gremlin to rest... *ugh*.

You're probably right but this would suit someone like me perfectly. I have a gliding licence (lapsed) & was well on the way to my PPL many years ago so would now have to start from scratch. I could afford to take a concentrated course of lessons & have the time to do it. I gave it serious consideration when I retired but realised I no longer have the enthusiasm.

PS. United Flying Octogenarians

[Brett_Henderson]

Hi again

[Hagar]

[quote]Hi again

[Brett_Henderson]

I'm not disagreeing with with you..  There's no doubt that the amount of training required is dependent on how frequently you train. That's common sense. Obviously the guy who flies every day will solo, and earn his license, in fewer hours than the guy who flies once a week. But that has nothing to do with setting the minimums.

As for octogenarian pilots ?

3800/618000 =  0.6%   By the last census, octogenarians made up 4.0 % of the population.

They're 4% of the population, but only represent 0.6% of all pilots. That was my point.

[Brett_Henderson]

LOL  :D  @  "Those things will never catch on"...


I sincerely hope that Light Sport planes catch on.. and go mainstream  

[RitterKreuz]

i personally have turned a few people away for sport pilot training... for three reasons

1. There was no available LSA at my airport when i was instructing
2. The person seeking training indicated their belief that it would be faster easier training
3. I was not very familiar with LS rules at the time

I managed to talk a couple of them into just getting their private. so thats good i guess. and none of these guys were over 35 years old.

would i sign off a person who met the hour minimums? No

would i sign off someone who i genuinely felt was ready? Yes

But one thing to consider... out of all the private pilots i trained only 2 of them were genuinely ready at about 45 hours... everyone esle was around 60 hours.i would imagine it would be about the same for an LSA... 15 - 20 - 25 more hours than the "minimum" to be ready.

some interesting things about the LSA rules however.

1. If you are a private pilot you are grandfathered in and may operate as a LSP as long as LSP rules are used.

2. Drivers license may be used as your medical

BUT - if you are already a licensed pilot and have had a medical certificate denied for any reason, this issue must be resolved before operating as a light sport pilot.

so it sounds to me like any old joe who has lost his medical for whatever reason must clear this issue up before legally operating as a light sport pilot.

Im still on the fence about LSA rules... i just dont think it is restrictive enough as to disqualifying conditions.

My dad has Type II diabetes, he controls it through diet, exercise and a pill (does not require injected insulin) he is 55 years old, weights about 215 lbs and he still holds a third class medical but has to do a lot of foot work to keep it current... for as infrequently as he actually takes an airplane up -despite the fact that its almost always to go flying with me - its getting to the point where all the hassle of dealing with doctors constantly is not worth it. he is a capable private pilot, he is competent and he makes good decisions.

do i think he is going to hurt anyone besides himself if he takes a 30 minute jaunt around the pattern followed by a tour of a local lake over a very sparsely populated countryside? very unlikely - especially if i am going to be flying with him 80% of the time... but it is possible that things can go wrong up there... but if my old man goes down due to a black out or what not... he is probably going to go down in a cattle field or hay field.

on the other side of the coin, take the retired 320 lb airline pilot who is diabetic and working on his 3rd heart attack. and wants to use his LSP license to go to oshkosh annually, or wants to use the license to visit his grandkids at an uncontrolled airport in a Houston suburb. disaster waiting to happen IMHO. if he blacks out or dies it is only a matter of minutes before he wanders into the heart of an international airport, or crashes into a playground or neighborhood.

i think there should have been ruling on the LSP license to prevent people from flying over densely populated areas, or they should have to get a LSP medical certificate from a medical examiner which allows for certain health problems but not for others perhaps.

[beaky]

Not arguing one way or the other here, but here's a noteworthy, if rare, example of how the Sport Pilot cert. is very useful:

My tailwheel instructor, who is in his late 70s if not older, still holds his CFI (or is it a Sport Pilot Instructor rating?) but not a medical. I don't know if he was denied it, or simply chose to shift to the LSA rules before being denied ( a plan I've heard about before), but he's legal to fly and instruct in aircraft that meet the LSA rules (like the 7AC). This made it possible for me, a PPASEL with a current medical, to receive the benefit of his very extensive flying wisdom.
Not saying some young buck with maybe 100 tailwheel hours couldn't have done as good a job, but... who would you pick?  ;D

He seems fit and aware enough- flies almost every day. I guess he can't fly solo or instruct non- PIC students out of Brown (which has a Class D), but he's still quite active. As I mentioned in my descriptions of my lessons, just trying to prop that Champ when she's feeling cranky is an excellent test of fitness... I had  to ask a few times for him to let me have a go at it. And I got cramps in my arms sooner then he did...

Anyway, I never felt worried that he'd expire back there or make some age-related mental error, although after one circuit I was pretty sure I could land the Champ safely if he did become incapacitated.

By comparison, I know a pilot who's in his mid-80s, has had a quadruple bypass, and still holds a valid medical. And he's a current CFII. He's another tough old pilot, but knowing his medical history, I'd be a bit concerned flying with him if i was a non-PIC.
Yet he meets the FAA medical requirements for instrument flight and instrument flight instruction (Class 2 at least, right?).

My point (no, really, there's a point): while the LS requirements seem to offer less assurance of a given pilot's fitness for flight, the "real pilot" medical screening doesn't offer an iron-clad guarantee, either. The good news is that unlike some never-held-a-PP pilot who goes LSA because he knows he can't pass a medical, these two gentlemen would probably know when to say "I guess I'm not up to this anymore" before something bad happens. The accident records support that, although I'm sure plenty of "cause unknown" cases are related to old-timers who are in denial.

As far as LS aircraft goes, this new rule is a godsend. The Champ and the Silvaire are being manufactured again... amazing!! They're ridiculously expensive, but it's great to know those types will not vanish completely anytime soon. I agree that there should be some medical requirement, maybe less stringent than the 3rd Class but something, but to me (and I concede my lack of experience), the limited instruction for the Sport rating fits pretty well with the restrictions. A Sport pilot is no more likely to violate his restrictions than a non-IR PP... consider the accident stats for VFR flight into IMC: that's a huge percentage of the overall stats.
When you think about it, despite the dubious merits of 20 hours before being turned loose, it could be a good thing in the long run that some student pilots out there might decide to at least start LSA and buy a Champ to learn in after getting their ticket, rather than starting out in a Cirrus or Bonanza after 40 hours. So far, it's been pilots with over 40 hrs training (and over 100 hrs total) in planes over 1400 lbs who have done the most to spoil the safety record for non-commercial GA.

But we'll have to see... ten or twenty years should tell the tale as far as that goes.

[RitterKreuz]

good looking little plane there by the way

I have always wanted a cub or stearman myself

[beaky]

good looking little plane there by the way

I have always wanted a cub or stearman myself

When I heard that Aeronca sought to make "a better Cub" with the Champ, I laughed... but when you fly both, you will understand. No clamshell doors, but other than that, I think it's better. You can see over the nose better on the ground, it is roomier inside, less drafty (when you'd prefer to be warm), and except for the new ones coming out now as LSAs, they're a lot cheaper, because "Champ" doesn't have the same cachet as "Cub".
 The relative merits of bungee gear (Cub)vs. hydraulic pistons (Champ) is a maintenance-cost issue; Champs do just fine on any surface, and are more rugged than they look. Never landed a Cub, so I can't say if they're "bouncier" or not, really.
Champs are very grin-inducing: if you haven't tried tailwheels yet (and you should- it'll make an honest pilot out of you!), I highly recommend a Champ as your classroom.  

The Stearman is another matter altogether- I've taken one ride so far in one, and could tell that although it's a lot of airplane, it's very manageable. Compared to a Cub or Champ, it flies like it's on rails.

[Brett_Henderson]

Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, that my flying has evolved into something more utile and less recreational, is subjective, I guess. Almost every flight I take, has a purpose, destination, and has been "scheduled". Our lunch flight, Rotty, was probably my last just-for-fun stint in a cockpit. And even that was planned, and not just a

[beaky]

Setting aside the LSA controversy for a moment (but still shoving Ritter's thread off-course):

Don't give up on the fun yet, Brett... I seem to remember you were the first pilot I've flown with since my training who suddenly sat up and said "Isn't this fun?!?" Kinda startled me...



You don't need a Champ to just go sport around, and just sporting around is good airmanship practice. I've done many 0.5-to 1 hr hops at the spur of the moment just to keep my hand in... some of those have been very fun, memorable flights. Couple of circuits, then some maneuvers, or maybe go to a nearby strip you haven't visited for a while. Or drag a friend to the airport and take them for a ride.

I've been tending that way, myself- towards that sort of flying... but I'm not entirely pleased with that. I need to get closer to the middle, because I can see requiring more utility in the next few years, and I know that challenging myself is good for me as a pilot.

[Brett_Henderson]

I seem to remember you were the first pilot I've flown with since my training who suddenly sat up and said "Isn't this fun?!?" Kinda startled me...

You know ? ..  I do remember that moment, distinctly... And I didn't have to think about it long before realizing why that thought popped into my head. By then, the weather was relatively good; there was no, "gotta get there" feeling, and (most importantly) there's an huge mental burden lifted, when the guy sitting in the right-seat is a pilot, too. You really can switch off the PIC mode enough to just enjoy. There's no worrying about anyone getting anxious and uncomfy if the ride gets bumpy.. no worrying about assuring them it's nothing... no feeling obligated to be an open book of aeronautical info for every question that pops into there naive head...  AND .. even if something does go wrong, not only are you not keeping them from losing their cool while keeping your own, the problem handling skills are doubled.

The Packers play at 1pm tomorrow (I've not watched maybe two games in 30 years) and it looks like a delightful morning, weaher-wise. I just booked an early, 172 hop up to Marysville.. gonna kick those Champ tires  :)  .. and be back by noon..

[Mobius]

I agree with you on that last post Brett.  When you have another pilot sitting right next to you, you don't have that burden of thinking about every little sound and every little bump and what could have happened.  Getting my instrument rating this summer was some of the best times flying I've ever had.  Mostly because I was able to fly pretty much worry free (or as worry free as you can let yourself be while flying ) because I had that guy next to me who has thousands of hours flying all kinds of aircraft in all kinds of situations, and you know that if anything gets hairy, you can depend on them to help you out.  When I went on my first instrument flight on my own, the ceilings were about 700 AGL in IMC pretty much the whole time, and when I first got into the clouds, I had a couple seconds of panic, because next to me was my Dad, who was just along for the ride, instead of an open book of aviation knowledge and experience.  But once I realized I had been flying like this for the last 50 hours, it became fun again.

And Ritter, I've been reading your plans for you flight school from the beginning, and it sounds like you have a good idea.  In my opinion, you'll never really know until you try.  You can try to guess how many people will want to fly and what kind of flying they'll want to do, but it will never turn out like you expected, so you can only give it a try.  I think most of the time things like this work out as well if not better than people had imagined.

And in regards to LSA.  I agree that it's not really a good idea to license new pilots to fly LS aircraft under LSA rules, I think it would be alright to allow people with a PPL to fly under LSA rules under certain conditions.  I'm not going to lie; if I was ever faced with losing my medical, I would probably just keep flying under LSA rules.  Unless of course I was going to just drop dead at any instant, or something that would incapacitate me and endanger people on the ground.  In that case, I would have to throw in the hat and give up flying.  Maybe take up hang gliding or skydiving...

[beaky]

The Packers play at 1pm tomorrow (I've not watched maybe two games in 30 years) and it looks like a delightful morning, weaher-wise. I just booked an early, 172 hop up to Marysville.. gonna kick those Champ tires  :)  .. and be back by noon..

Good for you!  ;D
Whatever you do, don't sit in the Champ and waggle the stick, or you might forget all about the game...

[Mobius]

Forget the Packers! *GASP!*


I forget all the time...