TRIM HELP PLEASE!

[Brett_Henderson]

One more thing. I agree that a set of rudder pedals would be more realistic but whether you use a joystick or yoke is a matter of preference. The joystick is regaining popularity in real life & many modern GA types are fitted with them. Most vintage light aircraft & aerobatic types use joysticks. Modern "fly-by-wire" jet fighters & even large jet airliners like the Airbus range feature controllers not unlike a gaming joystick. I can foresee a time when the only aircraft to use a yoke will be trainers & light twins. This is a complete reversal of how it was only a few years ago.

That's true. Pedals are almost a must, and a yoke doesn't work well when trying to make an Extra 300 do its thing (and it's pretty awkward for a helicopter). Since ideally, you'd have both a stick and a yoke... maybe a stick first, is a good idea.

[Hagar]

Since ideally, you'd have both a stick and a yoke... maybe a stick first, is a good idea.

I think that's debatable Brett. I've flown an aircraft with a yoke only once in all the years been involved with aviation. That was 40 miniutes stick time on the company Piper Aztec when going on holiday to the Channel Islands with my family back in the 1970s. With the type of aircraft I'm interested in both in real life & FS I've never felt the need to get a yoke. A set of pedals to go with my joystick would be more realistic but I'm quite happy with the separate rudder control. This is a simillar setup to my R/C transmitters which makes it useful for that too.

You obviously realise that many of the latest trainers (like your club's new Liberty XL2) have conventional joysticks. This also applies to the Diamond Star & similar types. Some modern light aircraft have a single stick mounted on a central console between the front seats & all popular Cirrus types use an unusual sidestick which reminds me of an umbrella handle sticking out of the the panel. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1131323/M/

I suspect that yokes will eventually become a thing of the past used on those old-fashioned Cessna & Piper trainers.

[Brett_Henderson]

You're probably right. Once you get used to a stick, it's really a more intuitive way to guide an aircraft. Not to mention the weight savings and simplicity, not having to get a linkage or cable system up behind a panel (or there-abouts).

The day will probably come when even light trainers have electro-servo control surfaces too, to go with glass panels and joysticks not unlike our gaming sticks will be the norm... economical "fly-by-wire"..

Electro or mechanical though... I don't see rudder pedals going anywhere. A twisting stick (or some other lever) might be OK for cross controlling a model, but I don't think it's a good way to fly a real plane. Flaring, controlling drift and

[Hagar]

I didn't intend drifting off-topic but this is a pet subject of mine. Just a couple of points.

[quote]Electro or mechanical though... I don't see rudder pedals going anywhere. A twisting stick (or some other lever) might be OK for cross controlling a model, but I don't think it's a good way to fly a real plane. Flaring, controlling drift and

[Brett_Henderson]

Drifting off topic is when 1/2 the best opinions and data show up...

And you're right..

[Hagar]

Drifting off topic is when 1/2 the best opinions and data show up...

Oh, I agree but many others wouldn't.

Having to actually let loose of the throttle to have any kind of differential braking though, in a real plane, goes beyond preference. Sure.. you can get used to it. Toe brakes at worst are awkward.. but you don't surrender control of anything in order to use them. And at taxiing speed (there is no nose-wheel steering on the Liberty) your hand is off the throttle completely in order to have any type of steering. Being able to modulate a widely-opened throttle while differential braking is a common practice in tight places. You can't do that in a Liberty (and still have a free hand).

I can't comment as I've only seen a few small photos of the arrangement. I'll have a closer look at the next opportunity, whenever that might be. However, I found one of the reports I mentioned here. I don't know the author or his credentials.
[quote][b][color=#333399] Okay, finger brakes. As I wrote when I flew the airplane a few years back, the Liberty has no toe brakes, only finger brakes, one little lever for the left wheel brake and one little lever for the right wheel brake. At that time I thought the finger brakes an odd choice and I predicted that the airplane would get toe brakes by certification. I was wrong. I was also wrong about the finger brakes. They

[Brett_Henderson]

Yeah.. that's how they teach it. Obviously it's not that big a compromise, or people would be taxiing Libertys into fuel pumps, hangars and other planes, regularly.

[Hagar]

Ah, thanks for the photo. I can now see what you're talking about. I admit it looks a tad fiddly but I would have to try it myself to form a proper opinion.

Strangely enough the Europa Tri-gear that the Liberty is based on apparently has toe brakes. http://www.pilotfriend.com/flight_reports/reports/19e.htm

PS. Robert Goyer, the author of that report I quoted, is Senior Editor of "Flying" magazine. http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?article_id=317&page_number=2§ion_id=11

[Brett_Henderson]

Yup.. he's got some weight behind his opinions....

Another point to ponder... I won't fly the Liberty from the right seat. I'm right-handed and there's no way my left hand can learn that finger dance. I'm 6'3" with rather large hands and it's all my spindly, favored fingers can do. My left hand gets pushed to its dexterity limit using a television remote control  

Now.. imagine the goofy hardware we'll have to get if this sort of brake arrangement ever catches on..  :D

[bok269]

Thanks for all the help.  I've been using the Logitech Extreme pro 3D.  Could that be making it harder than it is to trim?  Also, do you all reccomend the Saitek X52?

[Hagar]

[quote]Yup.. he's got some weight behind his opinions....

Another point to ponder... I won't fly the Liberty from the right seat. I'm right-handed and there's no way my left hand can learn that finger dance. I'm 6'3" with rather large hands and it's all my spindly, favored fingers can do. My left hand gets pushed to its dexterity limit using a television remote control

[Hagar]

[quote]Thanks for all the help.

[Brett_Henderson]

I've loads of right seat time and actually prefer my right hand on a yoke (or stick) and left hand on the throttle (it's those dirn, goofy brakes)..

As far as Airbuses go.. Left hand on the control (stick or yoke) and right hand on the throttle is the norm.. It's the poor co-pilot that has to adjust, like just about any right-seat flying..

Now.. back to bok269...

[Hagar]

[quote]Now.. back to bok269...

[C]

One more thing. I agree that a set of rudder pedals would be more realistic but whether you use a joystick or yoke is a matter of preference. The joystick is regaining popularity in real life & many modern GA types are fitted with them. Most vintage light aircraft & aerobatic types use joysticks. Modern "fly-by-wire" jet fighters & even large jet airliners like the Airbus range feature controllers not unlike a gaming joystick. I can foresee a time when the only aircraft to use a yoke will be trainers & light twins. This is a complete reversal of how it was only a few years ago.

I can see a situation where the yoke becomes a thing of the past, as it clutter up the cockpits. For a few examples, Airbus have used sidesticks for many years, the C-17 uses a central stick, and many light aircraft (particularly of European origin) are utilising sidesticks, normal control columns or centre (shared) sticks. This is somewhat unfortunate as often they are accompanied by electric trims, which by their digital "blipping" nature, are almost impossible to trim perfectly, compared to a good old trim wheel...

[and then I read page 2 of the thread]