spins

[awash2002]

Thanks Ozzy I will begin my spins that way I was doing it wrong

[GUS]

scubapro just out of interest what aircraaft do u use for spin training?

[congo]

In Australian Gliding we typically use semi-aerobatic two seat trainers certified for spins in this country. These include the Blanik L-13, Twin Astir, Puchatek, ASK-21 and IS-28. This training is usually done in these club owned aircraft.

I was hesitant is writing on this subject for the reasons you stated earlier Scubapro, but, on careful reflection, I figured a nut is a nut is a nut, and he will not be saved, but I tend to agree with our GFA policy on spin awareness. ie. Preparedness is preferable to fear and ignorance.

There is a great story about an incident in one of the most remote places on the planet here:

http://www.flightsafety.org.au/articles/i0173.php

Now, this fellow is very lucky to be alive and owes it much to luck but also very much to his spin awareness. This is a treacherous region for flying with unpredictable weather no doubt caused by it's extremes of terrain.

I thoroughly recommend a flight here in FS2002. You can take off from Telefomin and head 70* or so to get there, you'll see what I mean. This is where they found the stone age tribe in 1992 who had no contact with anyone since the neolithic age.

Region: Oceania
Country: Papua New Guinea
Airport: Telefomin
or coordinates direct: S05*05'

[BE58D]

Most are right, spins are dangerous... but more so at low altitudes and the wrong type of aircraft (there are some aircraft that are approved for intentional spins while most are not).

[Deputy]

[quote]Most are right, spins are dangerous... but more so at low altitudes and the wrong type of aircraft (there are some aircraft that are approved for intentional spins while most are not).

[ozzy72]

I've not been in this part of the Forum before. It's certainly been very interesting, just reading this thread.

I haven't had much time or need to get into discussion concerning 'real' flight. Even though many say that there is not much difference in terms of thoery etc, I prefer to consider 'real' flight as completely different. AS different as 'simulated' death is from 'real' death.

As Scubapro may recall, I have been making enquiries about flight training and have had some misgivings regarding the Medical requirements or restrictions.
Well, it would seem that, even though I may sound like a bit of cripple to some on the forum (having had to semi-retire and am only able to undertake sedentary work on a limited basis) I am apparently able to fly (not me personally - the plane).
I just had my medical and am OK for private, at least.

The Doc summed it up when he said to me "noboby stands up while they're flying, so as long as you can move everything while you're sitting and can see, you OK" (there's a bit more to it than that but basically it's not as bad as I would have imagined).

Anyway, I'm having a TIF in two weeks (can't wait).

Don't know if you've been up this way Congo, but I'm going to Hoxton Park. It's only a few miles away.
This is appartently what I'll be in. (Never been in anything but Airliners - oh! and the Spitfire V )

[ozzy72]

Well enjoy the TIF Brensec. Believe me real flying is better than virtual, but most of the stuff is just the same e.g. instruments, throw the stick left to go left, just don't use the rudder pedals like a clutch/accelerator/brake okay?
Err as for the MkV thing, er well to the best of my knowledge no Vs were converted to T spec... Are you perhaps talking CFS? In which case I'm sure some of our German members will be over to err chat with you in their 109s!

Ozzy

[ozzy72]

Well enjoy the TIF Brensec. Believe me real flying is better than virtual, but most of the stuff is just the same e.g. instruments, throw the stick left to go left, just don't use the rudder pedals like a clutch/accelerator/brake okay?
Err as for the MkV thing, er well to the best of my knowledge no Vs were converted to T spec... Are you perhaps talking CFS? In which case I'm sure some of our German members will be over to err chat with you in their 109s!

Ozzy

No, you have it all wrong. I didn't have a training flight in the Spit.
I posted about it months ago.
My grandfather was in the RAAF and when my brother and I were young (I was about 5, brother, 7) he took us up in a Spitfire V. In his lap.
I don't remember much about the flight except the smell of petrol and puking all over the wing.
After talking to my brother about it (after I posted about the event) I recalled that the plane was yellow (must have been an RAAF trainer - not a "T" - just a "practice plane" designated for training pilots - it was about 1963).
We also used to call it the "kangaroo plane". I suppose because it had a kangaroo or two on it somewhere (probably in the centre of the roundels).

I also recall (vaguely) that I got a really bad fright at some point when we were coming into land, because I could see that the plane was nearly going sideways (at least that's how it seemed to me, at that age) and I thought we were crashing. (5 year olds don't know a terrible lot about Yaw and engine torque etc...........lol.

That's what I meant by "only ever being in an Airliner ..........oh, and the Spitfire V"

[ozzy72]

BTW, the field I'm having my flight at (and possibly will trian at, if minor miracles can occur) is an "uncontrolled" field.
I'm told this is a big advantage because there's less congestion and you make you own decisions with regard to runway choice, separation etc.

They've told me that the average training time (hence expense) for their students is about 20% less to get to their GFPT, because they get more practical time in the air.

Does this sound right, or am I being wooed??

This is the website for the Flying School:
http://www.liverpoolflyingschool.com.au/

One question. It says that once you pass your GFPT, you can fly passengers within the "training area".
Does this mean with an instructor, or does the GFPT allow you to fly solo (kind of a Provisional license).

[ozzy72]

Now I'm jealous. You've actually been in my dream plane. If I had to have one last flight in my life and never go up again it would be a Spitfire IX or V!!!
As to the rules for flying in Aus. best to drop Congo a message, as he does gliding, and seems to know everything related to the rules of aviation in your neck of the woods.
Up here you get you PPL, and then you can take passengers, and not before...

Ozzy

[ozzy72]

Thanks Ozzy, I'll give Congo a hoy.

As for the Spit flight, I wish I could remember a whole lot more, but it was forty years ago, and I was so young. I know it wasn't such a thrill in terms of WHAT it was I was flying IN. I had no appreciation of the fame and history of the plane then.
I just recall it was a big thrill to go in one of Pa's (what we called him) "War Planes" (that's what we called all the planes we saw at Richmond RAAF base, that were painted in RAAF colours - from the Spit to the DC6's etc). Much the same way in which any kid would be thrilled to do anything that his grandfather does, that's so grown-up, like riding in a semi-trailer or a piece of earthmoving equipment with him. (Grandfathers are great........)

I rather think it would be impossible to do with an adult or large child. The cockpit (although I don't recall being very cramped) would be way too small. A "T" would be your only bet.
There is apparently a lady in England that has a two-seater Spit and will take people for rides (at a premium cost). I read that there is quite a waiting list though.
Or are you talking about flying it yourself. With that, I wish you good luck, and am not holding my breath for you on that one...............lol. Although they say money can buy almost anyhting. Maybe you'll win the lottery and you can buy your own. Would that not be grand.

I wonder if I had a Spit or a P51 etc, would they let me fly in the "training area" with my GFPT.........................lol. What a killer of a way to spend a morning. WOOOOOOOOOOOO.  ;D

If you don't know, the GFPT here is also called the "Student Pilots License".

[ozzy72]

The Spitfire thing has taken on a life of its own, I'm going to build a full sized replica. Unfortunately things are on hold as we recently lost all our dough in a fraudulent property deal (and the charming people concerned aren't even in jail!), so that has put me back a little, but I'll manage somehow.
I know about the T9 in Britain belonging to Carolyn Grace (it was brought by her husband Nick, who tragically died a couple of years ago), there is a 2 year waiting list to have a go. I hope I'll bag it as a birthday present one of these years. My wife understands my fanaticism, which is why I was allowed to get the replica plans by Marcel Jurca. I've hopefully found a suitable engine with enough power to get me out of the mischief I normally get into Most people think I'm a lunatic in virtual aviation, they should see me in real life!!!
Anyways have a safe flight, and enjoy yourself.

Mark

[Redwing]

P. POWER TO IDLE
A. AILERONS TO NEUTRAL
R. RUDDER OPPOSITE TO THE DIRECTION OF THE SPIN
E. ELEVATOR, ONCE YOU STOP ROTATING... GRADUALLY PULL UP, PULLING UP RAPIDLY WILL RESULT IN STALLING and THE POTENIAL FOR ANOTHER SPIN.

There were some very good replies on the subject of spins here, but BE58D made a key point, IT'S IMPERATIVE TO THROTTLE BACK FIRST!

The typical 2-4 seat trainer is generally of an aerodynamically clean design; these planes will build airspeed quickly in a spin....it's critical that the power be reduced immediately (if it wasn't already at idle). If a spin is initiated (intentional or not) with a cruise to full power setting, any delay in power reduction can prolong the spin rotation (even with ailerons neutral, opposite rudder...), and the plane can quickly 'Red-line' and exceed the "Never Exceed Speed", at which point you can start losing wings and other important parts, or otherwise just fast run out of recovery altitude!

BTW, I'm going to disagree with the majority here and say that spin recovery should be taught to student pilots later in their training; preferably before they go out solo to practice stalls and other maneuvers. I know it's not a requirement for the PPL (although some think it should be), and many CFI's disagree on the wisdom of teaching them to students. I had several instructors that felt that knowledge of spin recovery was a good thing, and I share their opinion.

One last thing.....SPINS ARE FUN!!.....I've done hundreds!

[Hagar]

BTW, I'm going to disagree with the majority here and say that spin recovery should be taught to student pilots later in their training; preferably before they go out solo to practice stalls and other maneuvers. I know it's not a requirement for the PPL (although some think it should be), and many CFI's disagree on the wisdom of teaching them to students. I had several instructors that felt that knowledge of spin recovery was a good thing, and I share their opinion.

One last thing.....SPINS ARE FUN!!.....I've done hundreds!

I'm surprised to learn that this is no longer a requirement for the PPL. Seems the modern trend is "spin avoidance". In my day (early 1960s) stalling & spinning (both directions) were mandatory before a pupil was allowed to go solo. Not much point in finding out afterwards. IMHO

[Deputy]

I'm surprised to learn that this is no longer a requirement for the PPL. Seems the modern trend is "spin avoidance". In my day (early 1960s) stalling & spinning (both directions) were mandatory before a pupil was allowed to go solo. Not much point in finding out afterwards. IMHO

Actually, there is a very good reason. Spins are very hard on airplanes. They can literally rip a plane apart. You don't hear about it much, but, some planes have just about disinegrated doing high-g-force spins. A spin can EASILY get out of hand, one mistake could make the spin "unbreakable" before ground contact, and we all know what that means. (Crash for those who can't figure it out. . . the "c" word. . .) Spins are very dangerous, even for skilled and well trained stunt pilots.