All renters students/ future students

[RitterKreuz]

These questions are directed toward all Student pilots and Private pilots who are renters of aircraft.

An eventual dream of mine is to open my own small flight school. Given recent and prospective partnerships i have created this goal could be close by.

I have several good ideas for a business/economics model, but to improve on my current ideas, find new ones and to build insight into what students and renters look for i pose the following questions for CURRENT RENTERS AND STUDENTS...

1.If you could have just about anything (realisticly speaking) at your flight school or flying club, what would it be?

2. What do you love about your current flight school or instructor?

3. What do you dislike about your current flight school or instructor?

4. what do you love about your rental arrangments?

5. what do you dislike about your rental arrangments?

6. if you could make any changes to your current flying club or flight school what would it be?

questions for FUTURE STUDENTS

1. Finances aside... What is the number one thing that has prevented you from taking flying lessons so far?

2. How do you feel about attending a structured ground school program that was convieniently located within your city (for example, in your favorite shopping center much like a driving school or karate school) but attending the flying portions of your training at the airport?

3. If you were offered financing from a local bank that would allow you to pay off your flight training NOW and pay a monthly payment of around $250 per month for the next 24 month at a fair interest rate, how likely would you be to use such a deal, and would it influence you to start training immediately versus waiting until you have saved up the money?

FOR EVERYONE

1. What makes you most nervous about beginning your flight training? (fear heights, fear of being evaluated, fear of not fitting in, fear of doing something wrong... anything goes here)

- i just want to hear what kind of things are on some renter/stundents minds.

thanks in advance

[Brett_Henderson]

I'll answer number 5..


A dirty little secret in aircraft rental, is that most schools/clubs/FBOs no longer carry a waiver of subrogation. This means that the insurance (for the owner of the aircraft) that YOU pay for (built in to the rental fee) does NOTHING more than cover a loss or damage to the aircraft, protecting the owner's investment. Also, it's very rare that the built in insurance that you pay for includes liability for anybody other than the owner.

Most active renters know this and most clubs require a renter to carry insurance of his own to cover personal liability (people you might injure or property other than the aircraft that you damage)... and to cover the owner's deductible on the plane.

Now the ugly part. In order to save money on insurance premiums... the lack of subrogation waiver means that the owner can sue you for any damage to the plane that his insurance will not cover. He can even sue you for lost revenue while the plane is out of service. And on top of that.. HIS insurance company can sue YOU to recover their loss. If the accident is deemed pilot error, you can almost expect a suit. Especially if it's gross negligence.

The real problem I have with this is that YOU are not only paying the owner's premiums when you rent.. YOU have to get additional coverage in order to fly without worrying about losing your house.

It didn't used to be this way. One of the reasons it can cost upwards of $100/hour to rent a C172, is insurance. Most clubs did have the waiver until a few years ago. Some still do, but they're getting rarer.

One more ugly thing is that some clubs don't bother to point out that you'll need a $600/year, non owners policy to fly worry free.. as it disuades many from even bothering to fly at all. They're perfectly happy to let you fly with just enough insurance to cover the owner's deductible.. Leaving you pretty much naked..

There..  that's my 2 cents..

[RitterKreuz]

excellent, excellent reply. I remember the flight school i used to work at for several years had a policy that we would provide our own insurance just as you stated above... but the owner of the school fully expected us to tell prospective students and renters that the best course of action would be to get their own policy set up. In the end we left it up to the renter / student to do as they wished.

A lot of people are not aware of what you just posted. Most people just sign the rental agreement and start flying with "two bags"   - one bag full of luck and one bag empty on experience - and the trick was to fill the experience bag without emptying the luck bag!! 98% of those out there pull it off and never have any insurance problems. but the other 2% really get screwed in the process.

If i were to start my own school, i would surely offer the renter a flexible insurance option - besides if you have the money to learn to fly... 6 or 7 hundred dollars a year for your own insurance isnt THAT much considering what it does for you in the long run! IMHO

anyone else care to answer a question or two?

[Mobius]

I don't know if this will help very much, as this is all from my PPL only point of view, but...

1.  It depends on what you are talking about, if you're talking about types of aircraft, for training purposes, I think one of the best aircraft out there for training are Cessna 152s and 172s, but it would have been nice to learn in something that has some newer radios/nav equipment, at least a nice GPS/com stack, because glass is the way the industry is going, and learning with an all analog panel requires you to go back and get more lessons on what is standard equipment today.  If you're just talking about what types of aircraft would be good to have, again, you can't really go wrong with the 152s and 172s for people who fly mostly for fun, but if you want to rent to people who take airplanes on trips and want a bit more luggage or luxury, I think the Cirrus aicraft some really nice aircraft, as are the Piper singles, and the Diamond aircraft, but there are many choices out there, and I really have no experience in anything other than 172s.  

If you're not talking about aircraft, I don't really know what I would want.  It's really handy having a full mechanic shop at the FBO, so if there's an expired AD, or a funny noise, you can just go ask about it, instead of not flying that day.  But that's about all I can think of.

2. The great thing about my flight school was the ability to take lessons whenever I wanted, and whenever was convinient to me.  That was probably because I took lessons when there weren't too many people taking lessons, as well as the fact that there were a couple different aircraft I could fly in, meaning I could usually find three or four different times during the week that would fit into my schedule, along with work and school.

3.  One thing I disliked (not so much at the time, but looking back now), was the fact that I learned at an uncontrolled airport, so I didn't really get enough experience in an ATC environment.  Luckily though, we're about 6 miles from a Class C airport, so we're under the upper layer of Class C airspace, which taught me to always watch the airspace you're flying into and out of, as well as being available to practice ATC operations in and around controlled airspace.  Since getting my license, I've done more in controlled airspace, so I'm a bit more comfortable now.

4.  My rental agreement stipulates that I have to fly once every 30 days, instead of the three times every 90 days that is required by the FAA.  This keeps me more up to date in my flying than doing a flight with three take-offs and landings every 90 days would, which is nice.

5.  I don't really know of anything that I don't like about my rental agreement.  I guess the only thing is if you rent an airplane for more than 24 hours, you're charged for a minimum of 2 hours of flight time, even if you've flown less.  But I actually see that as being more than fair, if you take one of their airplanes for a day, you are taking away potential revenue that they could be making by using the airplane for training, so I really think they should charge you for more than 2 hours.

6.  If I could have anything changed, I would have them get some newer, nicer airplanes.  Right now, the only choices of airplanes to fly are between three 30+ year old Cessna 172s, so a nice new Cirrus, or Diamond or something would be a real treat to take and fly for a couple of hours.  Other than that though, the FBO and entire airport were rebuilt a little over two years ago, so the facilities are great, and everything is nice, so I can't really ask for more.

Hope that helped somewhat.

[Brett_Henderson]

besides if you have the money to learn to fly... 6 or 7 hundred dollars a year for your own insurance isnt THAT much considering what it does for you in the long run! IMHO

Oh.. I do agree. It's not money so much as the principle. It's like you're paying for insurance twice.

On the money issue though..

[RitterKreuz]

true. i agree with you 100%.

the other thing to consider is this

Flight school A has a cessna 172 for rent for 98 bucks an hour and they have insurance that protects everyone involved.

Flight school B has a Cessna 172 for rent for 75 bucks an hour and they have acme insurance.

the question is which school would most people attend?

and a large part of their choice would hopefully ride on the following...

When it was up to me years ago, of course the hourly rate mattered... but what mattered more to me was the quality of the instruction, the sincerity of the staff and the feeling that i belonged to that flight school.

I went to an awesome "little" flight school that really had the whole one big family thing going on. most students and faculty knew each other on a first name basis despite the fact that there were nearly 75 to 100 students at any given time. the owner of the school was there frequently and always seemed genuinely interested in how you were progressing through your training. we would have cook outs well into the evenings one weekend a month. there was a study room and a relaxation room and i did quite a bit of both there! The students and staff associated with your class (10 or so students at a time) would even pitch in and throw you a surprise birthday party now and then!

the instructors even shared a couple of decent little 3 bedroom appartment close to the school - rent at the schools expense - all they had to cover was electric, water, trash etc. and be at work every day.

unfortunately some out of towners purchased the entire operation and ran it straight into the f-n ground not 1 year after i finished my ratings there. (purchased an all new fleet to replace the perfectly good one they had, remodeled the entire school, built a new hangar to replace the perfectly good one they already had etc etc etc)

thats kind of what i want to base my flight school on - the kind of place where even if you dont have a lesson scheduled at all that day, its still a good place to go and just hang out.

Have a trip starting up tomorrow - see all you guys sunday night some time.

[Brett_Henderson]

I've been involved with ALL types of clubs... good and bad. The club I'm asociated with now (New Flyers @ KOSU) is just like wht you mentioned. It's almost like a big family. I spend lots of time there (trying to get up the nerve to start taking on students). I'll bet 8 out of ten of my posts are from one of the computers there  ..

Flight school A has a cessna 172 for rent for 98 bucks an hour and they have insurance that protects everyone involved.

Flight school B has a Cessna 172 for rent for 75 bucks an hour and they have acme insurance.

the question is which school would most people attend?

Unfortunately, you're right. But if people were educated, honestly about insurance.. they could do the math.

If you fly 5 hours per month.. you hit the break even point. Your $600/year insurance works out to about $10 per hour flown. Since most people end up settling into a flying routine, at or below 5 hours per month... well.. you get the idea.

[Rocket_Bird]

1. A wide variety of aircraft.  Though I like flying Cessna 172s, I would occasionally like to hone my skills in a DA20 Katana, or something different.

2. I like how my school has friendly, laid back instructors.  Theres no better way to get good at flying.  

3. I don't like the lack of aircraft at my school and the tight scheduling.  My school has 3 Cessna 172Ns (the forth got flipped over by an Antinov a couple years back ).  There are times which I'd goto my school when a plane would be down for maintenance and I would have no airplane to fly.

4. Rental arrangements are easy.  I normally just call the school, state a time, and they would sign me up.  

5. Theres not much i dont dislike about rental arrangements at my school, other than no online booking as this other school I went to had.

6. I really can't think of much changes for my current flying club/school, other than more airplanes and less costs, but i guess you can't do much about costs :(:(:(


And for the everyone question, the thing that makes me most nervous about my flight training (though ive already finished the ppl, i can't say so much as beginning but more of experience) is probably being evaluated and being caught off guard.  I know how to fly the plane well, yet the pressure is about how to fly the plane they way they want you to fly.  I guess its kinda the same as taking driving lessons, but it seems so different because theres always so much going on.  Whether it be always looking out for landmarks and figuring out that incase something goes wrong, where to go from there... or being aware of which field to land if I lose the engine.  

Being caught off guard is another thing.  There was one day that I've rented where I felt sick, and for some reason I decided to fly anyways (I will never ever make that mistake again!).  By the time I reached just a thousand feet above ground, I started losing my awareness (must be the less dense air).  What the ATC said to me I would interpret as something different.  I was glad I was able to turn back and land safely.  But theres so many little things that can jeopardize safety in aviation, and thats probably what also made it nerve racking in training as well.  I only hope no one else makes the same mistake I did  ;)

[finny]

1. Maybe a bigger window facing airside, and not one of those ones that make everything look wavy. One window panel is like that at my flight school and makes it kinda hard to see things going on.

2. Easy going, not overly big with a friendly atmosphere. I've only got 11.5 hours and I know most people there.

3. The only thing I dislike is that it is over 1 hour away which isn't it's fault but it is a pain.

4. Being a fairly small school you can normally get a plane rented easily.

5. Not much at all, wouldn't hurt to have a few more planes available but it doesn't matter to much.

6. Not much really, maybe a better microwave  ;D