Is Flight a Simulator?

The latest and discontinued 'Flight' Game from Microsoft -

Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby andy190 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:31 pm

This thread is for intelligent debate about whether Flight is a Sim or not.

If you believe that Flight is a Sim please post a reason why.

If you don't think Flight is a Sim please post a reason why.

So basically if you have an opinion please have an intelligent Statement to back it up.

If you are just going to post things like Flight Isn
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby jetprop » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:39 pm

Flight is sort of a sim
It is a game about flying.

Thats all I have to say.
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Steve M » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:07 pm

I voted 'not sure'. I don't really want it, so I haven't tried it yet. Most simulators I know of, in professional use, are things you actually climb into. Defining simulation might be a good start as everyones point of view will vary. 
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby andy190 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:21 pm

I voted 'not sure'. I don't really want it, so I haven't tried it yet. Most simulators I know of, in professional use, are things you actually climb into. Defining simulation might be a good start as everyones point of view will vary. 


What I mean by Simulator is FSX or X-Plane, so basically a home Flight Simulator Program.
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Steve M » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:00 pm

[quote][quote]I voted 'not sure'. I don't really want it, so I haven't tried it yet. Most simulators I know of, in professional use, are things you actually climb into. Defining simulation might be a good start as everyones point of view will vary.
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Flight Ace » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:30 pm

This is one definition of Simulation._

The act of simulating something first requires that a model be developed; this model represents the key characteristics or behaviors of the selected physical or abstract system or process. The model represents the system itself, whereas the simulation represents the operation of the system over time.

Microsoft Flight is a flight simulator as it falls within this definition. It simulates aircraft flying for a given amount of time in an environment over a representative landscape.

For example.

Here are two screens of a Microsoft Flight aircraft flying in a simulated environment over a typical Hawaiian landscape. The aircraft is a good simulation but the environment and landscape fall short of a realistic representation.

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Here are two more screens of a FSX aircraft flying in a simulated environment over the same typical Hawaiian landscape. All simulated entities are excellent copies representing a realistic flight over Hawaii.

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Both accomplish the same results differing only in their environmental representation. In my opinion, both are Flight Simulators.
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Flying Trucker » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:50 pm

Hi Andy

Interesting Poll and I voted NO...

Reason:

[glow=yellow,2,300]Microsoft does not make Flight Simulators.[/glow]
They make programs to run certain flight training devices but Microsoft does not make a Flight Simulator.

From FS98, FS2000, FS2002, FS2004, FSX and Flight are just programs to work with a few Flight Training Devices or games to be used on a home computer.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Simulator

The below information was taken from the above Link which should be read in it's entirety before commenting... ;)


Qualification and approval

Procedure

In order for a Flight Simulation Training Device (FSTD) to be used for flight crew training or checking, it must be evaluated by the local National Aviation Authority (NAA), such as the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in the United States. The training device in question is evaluated against a set of regulatory criteria, and a number of both objective and subjective tests are conducted on the device. The results of each test, along with other significant information about the FSTD and its operator, are recorded in a Qualification Test Guide (QTG).[citation needed]

The result of the initial evaluation of the FSTD, called the Master QTG (MQTG), details the baseline performance of the device as accepted by the qualifying authority. A periodic re-evaluation, called a recurrent qualification, is performed regularly, generally in one year intervals (although the interval can be as low as six months for some FAA evaluations and as high as three years for some European evaluations), and the performance of the device is evaluated against the MQTG. Any significant deviations may result in the suspension or revocation of the device's approval.

The criteria against which an FSTD is evaluated are defined in one of a number of regulatory and/or advisory documents. In the United States and China, FSTD qualification is regulated in 14 CFR Part 60. In most of Europe as well as several other parts of the world, the relevant regulations are defined in JAR-FSTD A and JAR-FSTD H. The testing requirements vary for the different levels of qualification, but almost all levels require that the FSTD show that it matches the flight characteristics of the aircraft or family of aircraft being simulated.

The main exception to the above process is the evaluation of an ATD by the FAA. Rather than other FSTD, where each device is evaluated on an individual basis, ATDs are evaluated as an entire model line. When a manufacturer wishes to have an ATD model approved, a document that contains the specifications for the model line and that proves compliance with the appropriate regulations is submitted to the FAA. Once this document, called a Qualification Approval Guide (QAG), has been approved, all future devices conforming to the QAG are automatically approved and individual evaluation is neither required nor available.

Until the publication of Part 60, qualification was called certification, and QTGs were called Approval Test Guides (ATGs). The terms certification and ATG no longer have any regulatory meaning other than for FSTD that remain qualified under FAA AC 120-45 or any other legacy standard.

Flight Simulator "levels" and other categories

The following levels of qualification are currently being granted for both airplane and helicopter FSTD:

US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
Flight Training Devices (FTD)[7] FAA FTD Level 4 - Similar to a Cockpit Procedures Trainer (CPT), but for helicopters only. This level does not require an aerodynamic model, but accurate systems modeling is required.
FAA FTD Level 5 - Aerodynamic programming and systems modeling is required, but it may represent a family of aircraft rather than only one specific model.
FAA FTD Level 6 - Aircraft-model-specific aerodynamic programming, control feel, and physical cockpit are required.
FAA FTD Level 7 - Model specific, helicopter only. All applicable aerodynamics, flight controls, and systems must be modeled. A vibration system must be supplied. This is the first level to require a visual system.
Full Flight Simulators (FFS)[8] FAA FFS Level A - A motion system is required with at least three degrees of freedom. Airplanes only.
FAA FFS Level B - Requires three axis motion and a higher-fidelity aerodynamic model than does Level A. The lowest level of helicopter flight simulator.
FAA FFS Level C - Requires a motion platform with all six degrees of freedom. Also lower transport delay (latency) over levels A & B. The visual system must have an outside-world horizontal field of view of at least 75 degrees for each pilot.
FAA FFS Level D - The highest level of FFS qualification currently available. Requirements are for Level C with additions. The motion platform must have all six degrees of freedom, and the visual system must have an outside-world horizontal field of view of at least 150 degrees, with a Collimated (distant focus) display. Realistic sounds in the cockpit are required, as well as a number of special motion and visual effects.

European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA, ex JAA)
Flight Navigation and Procedures Trainer (FNTP)[9] EASA FNPT Level I
EASA FNPT Level II
EASA FNTP Level III
MCC - Not a true "level" of qualification, but an add-on that allows any level of FNPT to be used for multi-crew cooperation training.
Flight Training Devices (FTD)[9] EASA FTD Level 1
EASA FTD Level 2
EASA FTD Level 3 - Helicopter only.
Full Flight Simulators (FFS)[9] EASA FFS Level A
EASA FFS Level B
EASA FFS Level C
EASA FFS Level D

Credits

The training or checking credits allowed for an FSTD are based on the level of qualification and the operator's training curriculum. For some experienced pilots, Level D FFS may be used for Zero Flight Time (ZFT) conversions from one type of aircraft to another. In ZFT conversions, no aircraft flight time is required and the pilot first flies the aircraft (under the supervision of a training captain) on a revenue flight.[citation needed]

Manufacturers

Notable full flight simulator manufacturers include:
AXIS Flight Training Systems (Austria)
CAE Inc., (Canada)
FlightSafety International (FSI) (United States),
Frasca International, Inc.
Havelsan (Turkey)
Indra Sistemas in Spain
L-3 Communications - Link Simulation & Training Division
Mechtronix Systems (Canada)
Rockwell Collins
Thales Training & Simulation (France and UK)

Here is another interesting Link which should be read... :)


http://www.bruceair.com/msfs/fs_in_training.htm

The below has been taken from the above Link which should be read in it's entirety... :)


FAA Approval of PC-Based Simulations

Questions about FAA approval of Microsoft Flight Simulator pop up as often as, say, inquiries about logging flight time (see below).

As noted above, the experiences of many individuals and organizations over the years demonstrate that PC-based simulations, including Microsoft Flight Simulator, can make your training or proficiency flying more efficient and less costly, even if time spent using the tools doesn
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Steve M » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:06 pm

Some very good reading  in that text, Doug! Point being, above all, MS never made an actual simulator. But they made some Damned good software to simulate a simulator!  8-)
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Flight Ace » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:53 pm

[quote]Some very good reading
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Bass » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:58 am

No...not yet.
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Flying Trucker » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:50 am

Good morning all... :)

Just an add on to my above post.

Let us take for example the Douglas DC3 which is just one of the old piston pounders I flew, tested and instructed on.

When Carburetor Ice was overlooked for too long of a period the affected engine would lose power without much warning and very quickly.  The aircraft would roll.

One had to be quick on the controls (rudders) if they did not want to buy the farm.

Who ever was flying the aircraft had best have their seat belt on as the aircrafts deviation from level flight could throw one out of their seat.
Especially at Max Load.

When something goes wrong it is usually followed by several other problem all compounding the work load in the cockpit.  Motion is required for this in a Flight Simulator although the Procedures can be exercised on the Training Aid which may not have motion.

Smoke in the cockpit for example followed by a sudden loss of an engine on a heavy twin can only be replicated by a Motion Simulator.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the Games that Microsoft marketed (FS98, FS2000, FS2002, FS2004, FSX and Flight) and they work well in many Training Aids but as my above post shows they are not a Flight Simulator.

That said they could be used as a Program for a Motion Simulator but used without motion they can best be described as a good program for a Non-Motion Flight Simulator or Training Aid... :)

Again interesting subject Andy... ;)
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Fozzer » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:30 am

Is it a Flight Simulator?
Sort of...
....if you have a very vivid imagination!... ;)...!

For me, its a particularly enjoyable Microsoft computer game and learning tool, which gives me great delight in being able to explore the World around me, using an array of various maps (Google), charts, and sources of local information (Wikipedia), in areas which I would never be able to visit, and explore, in real life!

The fact that it uses an imaginary aeroplane, means that I am free to wander everywhere I wish, with no boundaries to restrict me!

As a learning tool, incorporating a bit of fun as well, it is a an excellent past-time, to while away the hours!

Most of my hours/life have been spent whiling away, over the past 16+ years.... :o....
..its about time I went outside to mow the grass!... :-[...!

Paul...Have imaginary Cessna 150...will travel... ;)..!

We must constantly remind ourselves, that what we see on our computer screens are merely "pixels", which we manipulate by means of a keyboard, or similar device...the objects which we observe are not real!....Its all in the mind....trust me!... ;)...!
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Flight Ace » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:31 am

[quote]Good morning all... :)

Just an add on to my above post.

Let us take for example the Douglas DC3 which is just one of the old piston pounders I flew, tested and instructed on.

When Carburetor Ice was overlooked for too long of a period the affected engine would lose power without much warning and very quickly.
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby alrot » Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:11 pm

You are drowning in a glass of water here, they all are simulations ,Medal of Honor= a war simulation, San Andreas/grand thief = how to be a criminal simulator, Resident Evil = How to kill zombies simulator

Of course a real life pilot can't be trained by any PC FS game,Its a handful for beginers , real life simulator ,those who cost more than and airplane are made most for emergency situations ..
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Re: Is Flight a Simulator?

Postby Steve M » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:03 pm

So it seems there are *six degrees of simulation.
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