Freeware development - what do you reckon?

[Club508]

Well, i do know one possible positive.

[hyperpep111]

First of all welcome pegger

So much negativity...to quote as previously said.

Why would 3rd party addons not exist? Even for your run of the mill PC games out there today that are not in the least bit designed to be open source, there exists large volumes of addons (also known as hacks or mods) that are created by those users who are so inclined and interested in doing so. And those interested in adding the mods to their games drive the ambition of the developers to make the mods and to find ways to distribute them.

And to assume that the lack of a scheduled 3rd party addon system for Flight is what is going to kill the franchize....really? I think the existence of the addon community is driven by the users, not the producers. Most of us are here simply as leeches, and fewer serve as the peers (to put it in terms of file sharing, which is essentially what is going on here, but not in the illegal way).

If you all decide to turn your back on new versions of simulators (or games, however you feel you need to refer to the program), then the franchise will not fail like some predict that it will. It will decline in popularity just like FS 2004 and FSX did, and get cheaper in the stores. And some of you will in turn buy it at a cheaper price, because you would have justified that to your self somehow or another that it was ok for cheap, but not for full price. Then Microsoft will react to your boycott by counting the money from the last release, regardless of if it sold for full release price, or decreased on-the-way-out price (which still = profit by the way), and then evaluate what the selling price for FS12 will be. And the cycle will go on and on.

Keep one thing in mind in software development....the programs are not made with longevity in mind. Programs are written to sell for profit, to a market that decides that it needs a newer copy of the program. Some are happy using older versions (who still runs office 2003?), while others like free ware (who runs Open Office?), and others like the newest version and could care less about the old expired and unsupported versions (who runs office 2010?).

So quit your griping about Flight, and what it will and won't be. Those that design it know for a fact that they will sell copies, and that there will be detractors to the new program. There always are detractors.

And for those that threaten to jump to other programs (xplane, etc...) the developers of those other programs depend on your negativity to get your dollars. Always about the dollars after all. And what if they sell to another development company, or suddenly decide to jump ship and change their philosophy on game design? What if the driving market force isn't all of us and our desire for free stuff, but it's 14 year old kids with short attention spans and their own credit cards? Have you ever thought that way about how a software company decides what the next game should be like?

If you like FS2004....keep on keeping on. If you like FSX....see you in the virtual sky. I like that version myself. If you like flightgear, so be it. In the meantime, how about we all quit belly aching about what an unrealeased program can or can't do.

I think I strayed off topic slightly, and ranted abit, but what the heck...we're all here to listen to each others ideas after all.

So long story short you think we are being unfair, we should wait and see and then "review" it when it's out? :-?
If so I agree. But you also have to look into the past experiences of M$ Windows vista, fsx they really ignore the customers. And now they will have to suffer if they continue not to listen

[Al_Fallujah]

I agree with Pegger.

And what makes you folk so sure that they did not listen to the community on FSX?

They have to balance what everyone wants with what is practical to program, and still have it run, even if its at 15 frames/sec. And every added feature and object takes many man hours to create. That is why the much larger public community is able to create so much more product in the same amount of time.

I have been watching people complain about the MS team for what is NOT in FSX, and read some of the ridiculous requests about what they want the software to do. Until software developers are able to add the IFM module to their products, you will NEVER get EVERYTHING.

I work in a totally unrelated software community. ALL software producers listen. But they take and jump on whats PRACTICAL, and put that in the software. Other things go to R&D for later versions, because the man hours it would take to make it all work right now in this version would cause the final price of the product to sky rocket.

[Club508]

I agree with Pegger.

And what makes you folk so sure that they did not listen to the community on FSX?

They have to balance what everyone wants with what is practical to program, and still have it run, even if its at 15 frames/sec. And every added feature and object takes many man hours to create. That is why the much larger public community is able to create so much more product in the same amount of time.

I have been watching people complain about the MS team for what is NOT in FSX, and read some of the ridiculous requests about what they want the software to do. As soon as software developers are able to add the IFM module to their products, you will NEVER get EVERYTHING.

I work in a totally unrelated software community. ALL software producers listen. But they take and jump on whats PRACTICAL, and put that in the software. Other things go to R&D for later versions, because the man hours it would take to make it all work right now in this version would cause the final price of the product to sky rocket.

That's part of why I left the computor game creaton community and am sticking to just sprite (computor graphics made for computer games) creaton for a small little company being run by my friends.  I'm my own brand of perfectionist.  I just can't think of something with nothing to build on, and I just keep wanting to make these huge computer games with everything in it, with basic computor game creation software.  I just kept wanting to add more and more to them, forgetting what's practical and impractical, and I just couldn't do it.  Because of that, I have probably atleast 100-150 games that I've never even come close to finishing in my mind, and only two that I've completed.  i eventually just lost it with game creaton.  So I decided, heck, let my friends figure out the game, just have them tell me the sprites to make and let them do the rest!

But all in all, I can [glow=yellow,2,300]DEFINATLY[/glow] verify what Al_Fallujah says by personal expierience.

[hyperpep111]

I agree with Pegger.

And what makes you folk so sure that they did not listen to the community on FSX?

They have to balance what everyone wants with what is practical to program, and still have it run, even if its at 15 frames/sec. And every added feature and object takes many man hours to create. That is why the much larger public community is able to create so much more product in the same amount of time.

I have been watching people complain about the MS team for what is NOT in FSX, and read some of the ridiculous requests about what they want the software to do. As soon as software developers are able to add the IFM module to their products, you will NEVER get EVERYTHING.

I work in a totally unrelated software community. ALL software producers listen. But they take and jump on whats PRACTICAL, and put that in the software. Other things go to R&D for later versions, because the man hours it would take to make it all work right now in this version would cause the final price of the product to sky rocket.

VTOL e.t.c

[Al_Fallujah]

I agree with Pegger.

And what makes you folk so sure that they did not listen to the community on FSX?

They have to balance what everyone wants with what is practical to program, and still have it run, even if its at 15 frames/sec. And every added feature and object takes many man hours to create. That is why the much larger public community is able to create so much more product in the same amount of time.

I have been watching people complain about the MS team for what is NOT in FSX, and read some of the ridiculous requests about what they want the software to do. As soon as software developers are able to add the IFM module to their products, you will NEVER get EVERYTHING.

I work in a totally unrelated software community. ALL software producers listen. But they take and jump on whats PRACTICAL, and put that in the software. Other things go to R&D for later versions, because the man hours it would take to make it all work right now in this version would cause the final price of the product to sky rocket.

VTOL e.t.c

Hmmm, just tested my helicopter in FSX.
Vertical take off.. Check.
Vertical Landing... Check.
(sarcasm)

[Strategic Retreat]

So much negativity...to quote as previously said.

Last time positivity reigned, we had FSX... and this time around rumors are EVEN MORE dire.

Why would 3rd party addons not exist?

Ah, but here's the snag... WHAT KIND of 3rd party addons are we talking about here?

Even for your run of the mill PC games out there today that are not in the least bit designed to be open source, there exists large volumes of addons (also known as hacks or mods) that are created by those users who are so inclined and interested in doing so. And those interested in adding the mods to their games drive the ambition of the developers to make the mods and to find ways to distribute them.

Sorry, hacks and mods are mostly ILLEGAL modifications... look only to some time back, when FS9 was The Sim and the quarrel with its NO-CD hack...

Do we have to go down from the actual free market to hidden conspiracy only because some egghead decided to let its power get to its head?

I think not.

And to assume that the lack of a scheduled 3rd party addon system for Flight is what is going to kill the franchize....really?

Really!

Of course, if you're interested in a GAME OF PLANES... then whatever.

I think the existence of the addon community is driven by the users, not the producers.

Could make a ton of examples of how wrong you are, but I'm not going to. Whomever has eyes to see knows how wrong this allegation you made is.

Most of us are here simply as leeches, and fewer serve as the peers (to put it in terms of file sharing, which is essentially what is going on here, but not in the illegal way).

Why, thank you. Being called a leech is just the thing I love the most.

Love the way you tried NOT to include yourself in the bodycount.

If you all decide to turn your back on new versions of simulators (or games, however you feel you need to refer to the program), then the franchise will not fail like some predict that it will. It will decline in popularity just like FS 2004 and FSX did, and get cheaper in the stores. And some of you will in turn buy it at a cheaper price, because you would have justified that to your self somehow or another that it was ok for cheap, but not for full price. Then Microsoft will react to your boycott by counting the money from the last release, regardless of if it sold for full release price, or decreased on-the-way-out price (which still = profit by the way), and then evaluate what the selling price for FS12 will be. And the cycle will go on and on.

So we should buy even if it's crap? Not saying it will be, I said "even if", mind?

Twisted reasoning, yours.

That and... what you say MAY have a grain of truth... in a market with no alternatives. Look around. Alternatives to FS, or Flight as it may be, DO EXIST.

Keep one thing in mind in software development....the programs are not made with longevity in mind. Programs are written to sell for profit, to a market that decides that it needs a newer copy of the program. Some are happy using older versions (who still runs office 2003?), while others like free ware (who runs Open Office?), and others like the newest version and could care less about the old expired and unsupported versions (who runs office 2010?).

So we should sacrifice OURSELVES to the high altar of OTHERS bank accounts, no matter is the software answer to our requests or not?

Moreover, we should buy REGARDLESS of our need... only because they took an afternoon off now and then to cobble together something THEY need we should buy without taking into account our requests at any levels?

Talk about twisted.

Longevity is not the matter in discussion, here. FUNCTIONALITY of Flight is.

So quit your griping about Flight, and what it will and won't be. Those that design it know for a fact that they will sell copies, and that there will be detractors to the new program. There always are detractors.

So, what you say is: Resistance is futile. You WILL be assimilated.

I can't speak for others, but for what regards me, not until my credit card is MINE.

And for those that threaten to jump to other programs (xplane, etc...) the developers of those other programs depend on your negativity to get your dollars.

And on what do Flight's developers depend to get the same, then?

Resignation?

Always about the dollars after all.

Sure... but one thing is DESERVE them, to DEMAND them is just another thing.

And what if they sell to another development company, or suddenly decide to jump ship and change their philosophy on game design? What if the driving market force isn't all of us and our desire for free stuff, but it's 14 year old kids with short attention spans and their own credit cards? Have you ever thought that way about how a software company decides what the next game should be like?

Sure I did... that's why personally I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THAT POTENTIAL INVOLUTION.

They want my money? Better for them to deserve being paid.

If you like FS2004....keep on keeping on. If you like FSX....see you in the virtual sky. I like that version myself. If you like flightgear, so be it. In the meantime, how about we all quit belly aching about what an unrealeased program can or can't do.

Personally, I think your reasoning above bases itself heavily on willing suspension of disbelief. As I see it, we ALL have alternatives still.

Be it ever so clear, if you read ALL my previous posts you'll see I am still moderately hopeful, but after the repeating of FS2K, five years ago (only definitively WORSE, as you can use FS2K with hardware sold in 2005 with not even half the problems people have using FSX with today's hardware), I've become and remain cynical.

I am all about waiting and see what will happen, but at the same time, I am all about a "plan B" as well. Because, if you WANT something, you better DESERVE it, and not hide behind marketing logics.

If they REALLY want to involute their software to satisfy people with shoot-em-up logics, it's ONLY NATURAL they will lose the ones that do not have that mindset, no?

If they really want to become power freaks and dictate all you can do with a thing you bought, it's only natural that someone used to the freedom of customizing of the old program structure will NOT follow.

The ONLY power we have is to vote with our wallets, refusing to pay for what we do NOT agree with... and you are practically working against this last power of ours... and you SHOULD be one of us too. Get your act cleaned up. You can do whatever you want with YOUR money... and so do we.

[Club508]

So much negativity...to quote as previously said.

Last time positivity reigned, we had FSX... and this time around rumors are EVEN MORE dire.

Why would 3rd party addons not exist?

Ah, but here's the snag... WHAT KIND of 3rd party addons are we talking about here?

Even for your run of the mill PC games out there today that are not in the least bit designed to be open source, there exists large volumes of addons (also known as hacks or mods) that are created by those users who are so inclined and interested in doing so. And those interested in adding the mods to their games drive the ambition of the developers to make the mods and to find ways to distribute them.

Sorry, hacks and mods are mostly ILLEGAL modifications... look only to some time back, when FS9 was The Sim and the quarrel with its NO-CD hack...

Do we have to go down from the actual free market to hidden conspiracy only because some egghead decided to let its power get to its head?

I think not.

And to assume that the lack of a scheduled 3rd party addon system for Flight is what is going to kill the franchize....really?

Really!

Of course, if you're interested in a GAME OF PLANES... then whatever.

I think the existence of the addon community is driven by the users, not the producers.

Could make a ton of examples of how wrong you are, but I'm not going to. Whomever has eyes to see knows how wrong this allegation you made is.

Most of us are here simply as leeches, and fewer serve as the peers (to put it in terms of file sharing, which is essentially what is going on here, but not in the illegal way).

Why, thank you. Being called a leech is just the thing I love the most.

Love the way you tried NOT to include yourself in the bodycount.

If you all decide to turn your back on new versions of simulators (or games, however you feel you need to refer to the program), then the franchise will not fail like some predict that it will. It will decline in popularity just like FS 2004 and FSX did, and get cheaper in the stores. And some of you will in turn buy it at a cheaper price, because you would have justified that to your self somehow or another that it was ok for cheap, but not for full price. Then Microsoft will react to your boycott by counting the money from the last release, regardless of if it sold for full release price, or decreased on-the-way-out price (which still = profit by the way), and then evaluate what the selling price for FS12 will be. And the cycle will go on and on.

So we should buy even if it's crap? Not saying it will be, I said "even if", mind?

Twisted reasoning, yours.

That and... what you say MAY have a grain of truth... in a market with no alternatives. Look around. Alternatives to FS, or Flight as it may be, DO EXIST.

Keep one thing in mind in software development....the programs are not made with longevity in mind. Programs are written to sell for profit, to a market that decides that it needs a newer copy of the program. Some are happy using older versions (who still runs office 2003?), while others like free ware (who runs Open Office?), and others like the newest version and could care less about the old expired and unsupported versions (who runs office 2010?).

So we should sacrifice OURSELVES to the high altar of OTHERS bank accounts, no matter is the software answer to our requests or not?

Moreover, we should buy REGARDLESS of our need... only because they took an afternoon off now and then to cobble together something THEY need we should buy without taking into account our requests at any levels?

Talk about twisted.

Longevity is not the matter in discussion, here. FUNCTIONALITY of Flight is.

So quit your griping about Flight, and what it will and won't be. Those that design it know for a fact that they will sell copies, and that there will be detractors to the new program. There always are detractors.

So, what you say is: Resistance is futile. You WILL be assimilated.

I can't speak for others, but for what regards me, not until my credit card is MINE.

And for those that threaten to jump to other programs (xplane, etc...) the developers of those other programs depend on your negativity to get your dollars.

And on what do Flight's developers depend to get the same, then?

Resignation?

Always about the dollars after all.

Sure... but one thing is DESERVE them, to DEMAND them is just another thing.

And what if they sell to another development company, or suddenly decide to jump ship and change their philosophy on game design? What if the driving market force isn't all of us and our desire for free stuff, but it's 14 year old kids with short attention spans and their own credit cards? Have you ever thought that way about how a software company decides what the next game should be like?

Sure I did... that's why personally I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THAT POTENTIAL INVOLUTION.

They want my money? Better for them to deserve being paid.

If you like FS2004....keep on keeping on. If you like FSX....see you in the virtual sky. I like that version myself. If you like flightgear, so be it. In the meantime, how about we all quit belly aching about what an unrealeased program can or can't do.

Personally, I think your reasoning above bases itself heavily on willing suspension of disbelief. As I see it, we ALL have alternatives still.

Be it ever so clear, if you read ALL my previous posts you'll see I am still moderately hopeful, but after the repeating of FS2K, five years ago (only definitively WORSE, as you can use FS2K with hardware sold in 2005 with not even half the problems people have using FSX with today's hardware), I've become and remain cynical.

I am all about waiting and see what will happen, but at the same time, I am all about a "plan B" as well. Because, if you WANT something, you better DESERVE it, and not hide behind marketing logics.

If they REALLY want to involute their software to satisfy people with shoot-em-up logics, it's ONLY NATURAL they will lose the ones that do not have that mindset, no?

If they really want to become power freaks and dictate all you can do with a thing you bought, it's only natural that someone used to the freedom of customizing of the old program structure will NOT follow.

The ONLY power we have is to vote with our wallets, refusing to pay for what we do NOT agree with... and you are practically working against this last power of ours... and you SHOULD be one of us too. Get your act cleaned up. You can do whatever you want with YOUR money... and so do we.

My head's spinning from all that, but I think I get it.

[Al_Fallujah]

Pegger, your reasoning is sound.

No one is holding guns to our heads to force us to buy the product.

Some people just want the World for $19.99.

[Club508]

Pegger, your reasoning is sound.

No one is holding guns to our heads to force us to buy the product.

Some people just want the World for $19.99.

just out of curiosity, why ARE most products form comercials 19.99?

And one way I think of things, if it's actually worth buying, it shouldn't need a commercial.

[Al_Fallujah]

Pegger, your reasoning is sound.

No one is holding guns to our heads to force us to buy the product.

Some people just want the World for $19.99.

just out of curiosity, why ARE most products form comercials 19.99?

And one way I think of things, if it's actually worth buying, it shouldn't need a commercial.

Marketing. No other reason.
19.99, its less than 20.00. Sounds more appealing.
Marketing researchers have put all kinds of money into finding out what sounds most appealing to consumers.

And, if it is actually worth buying, then that's great, but how are we to know a product exists without hearing about it in the first place. Advertising. Get the word out on the street to all to hear (or see).

Word of mouth is good for some products. But market folk also assume that a critique (ideally positive) is attached to it in that form. But that only works for products actually released. In the case of FLIGHT, everything is still speculation.

[hyperpep111]

So much negativity...to quote as previously said.

Last time positivity reigned, we had FSX... and this time around rumors are EVEN MORE dire.

Why would 3rd party addons not exist?

Ah, but here's the snag... WHAT KIND of 3rd party addons are we talking about here?

Even for your run of the mill PC games out there today that are not in the least bit designed to be open source, there exists large volumes of addons (also known as hacks or mods) that are created by those users who are so inclined and interested in doing so. And those interested in adding the mods to their games drive the ambition of the developers to make the mods and to find ways to distribute them.

Sorry, hacks and mods are mostly ILLEGAL modifications... look only to some time back, when FS9 was The Sim and the quarrel with its NO-CD hack...

Do we have to go down from the actual free market to hidden conspiracy only because some egghead decided to let its power get to its head?

I think not.

And to assume that the lack of a scheduled 3rd party addon system for Flight is what is going to kill the franchize....really?

Really!

Of course, if you're interested in a GAME OF PLANES... then whatever.

I think the existence of the addon community is driven by the users, not the producers.

Could make a ton of examples of how wrong you are, but I'm not going to. Whomever has eyes to see knows how wrong this allegation you made is.

Most of us are here simply as leeches, and fewer serve as the peers (to put it in terms of file sharing, which is essentially what is going on here, but not in the illegal way).

Why, thank you. Being called a leech is just the thing I love the most.

Love the way you tried NOT to include yourself in the bodycount.

If you all decide to turn your back on new versions of simulators (or games, however you feel you need to refer to the program), then the franchise will not fail like some predict that it will. It will decline in popularity just like FS 2004 and FSX did, and get cheaper in the stores. And some of you will in turn buy it at a cheaper price, because you would have justified that to your self somehow or another that it was ok for cheap, but not for full price. Then Microsoft will react to your boycott by counting the money from the last release, regardless of if it sold for full release price, or decreased on-the-way-out price (which still = profit by the way), and then evaluate what the selling price for FS12 will be. And the cycle will go on and on.

So we should buy even if it's crap? Not saying it will be, I said "even if", mind?

Twisted reasoning, yours.

That and... what you say MAY have a grain of truth... in a market with no alternatives. Look around. Alternatives to FS, or Flight as it may be, DO EXIST.

Keep one thing in mind in software development....the programs are not made with longevity in mind. Programs are written to sell for profit, to a market that decides that it needs a newer copy of the program. Some are happy using older versions (who still runs office 2003?), while others like free ware (who runs Open Office?), and others like the newest version and could care less about the old expired and unsupported versions (who runs office 2010?).

So we should sacrifice OURSELVES to the high altar of OTHERS bank accounts, no matter is the software answer to our requests or not?

Moreover, we should buy REGARDLESS of our need... only because they took an afternoon off now and then to cobble together something THEY need we should buy without taking into account our requests at any levels?

Talk about twisted.

Longevity is not the matter in discussion, here. FUNCTIONALITY of Flight is.

So quit your griping about Flight, and what it will and won't be. Those that design it know for a fact that they will sell copies, and that there will be detractors to the new program. There always are detractors.

So, what you say is: Resistance is futile. You WILL be assimilated.

I can't speak for others, but for what regards me, not until my credit card is MINE.

And for those that threaten to jump to other programs (xplane, etc...) the developers of those other programs depend on your negativity to get your dollars.

And on what do Flight's developers depend to get the same, then?

Resignation?

Always about the dollars after all.

Sure... but one thing is DESERVE them, to DEMAND them is just another thing.

And what if they sell to another development company, or suddenly decide to jump ship and change their philosophy on game design? What if the driving market force isn't all of us and our desire for free stuff, but it's 14 year old kids with short attention spans and their own credit cards? Have you ever thought that way about how a software company decides what the next game should be like?

Sure I did... that's why personally I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THAT POTENTIAL INVOLUTION.

They want my money? Better for them to deserve being paid.

If you like FS2004....keep on keeping on. If you like FSX....see you in the virtual sky. I like that version myself. If you like flightgear, so be it. In the meantime, how about we all quit belly aching about what an unrealeased program can or can't do.

Personally, I think your reasoning above bases itself heavily on willing suspension of disbelief. As I see it, we ALL have alternatives still.

Be it ever so clear, if you read ALL my previous posts you'll see I am still moderately hopeful, but after the repeating of FS2K, five years ago (only definitively WORSE, as you can use FS2K with hardware sold in 2005 with not even half the problems people have using FSX with today's hardware), I've become and remain cynical.

I am all about waiting and see what will happen, but at the same time, I am all about a "plan B" as well. Because, if you WANT something, you better DESERVE it, and not hide behind marketing logics.

If they REALLY want to involute their software to satisfy people with shoot-em-up logics, it's ONLY NATURAL they will lose the ones that do not have that mindset, no?

If they really want to become power freaks and dictate all you can do with a thing you bought, it's only natural that someone used to the freedom of customizing of the old program structure will NOT follow.

The ONLY power we have is to vote with our wallets, refusing to pay for what we do NOT agree with... and you are practically working against this last power of ours... and you SHOULD be one of us too. Get your act cleaned up. You can do whatever you want with YOUR money... and so do we.

I completely agree with you Strategic Retreat It's your money and no one else's. you choose how to spend it. Flightgear will save you money and if you choose use it no one should criticize you.
After all, we all have our own way of thinking

[hyperpep111]

So much negativity...to quote as previously said.

Last time positivity reigned, we had FSX... and this time around rumors are EVEN MORE dire.

Why would 3rd party addons not exist?

Ah, but here's the snag... WHAT KIND of 3rd party addons are we talking about here?

Even for your run of the mill PC games out there today that are not in the least bit designed to be open source, there exists large volumes of addons (also known as hacks or mods) that are created by those users who are so inclined and interested in doing so. And those interested in adding the mods to their games drive the ambition of the developers to make the mods and to find ways to distribute them.

Sorry, hacks and mods are mostly ILLEGAL modifications... look only to some time back, when FS9 was The Sim and the quarrel with its NO-CD hack...

Do we have to go down from the actual free market to hidden conspiracy only because some egghead decided to let its power get to its head?

I think not.

And to assume that the lack of a scheduled 3rd party addon system for Flight is what is going to kill the franchize....really?

Really!

Of course, if you're interested in a GAME OF PLANES... then whatever.

I think the existence of the addon community is driven by the users, not the producers.

Could make a ton of examples of how wrong you are, but I'm not going to. Whomever has eyes to see knows how wrong this allegation you made is.

Most of us are here simply as leeches, and fewer serve as the peers (to put it in terms of file sharing, which is essentially what is going on here, but not in the illegal way).

Why, thank you. Being called a leech is just the thing I love the most.

Love the way you tried NOT to include yourself in the bodycount.

If you all decide to turn your back on new versions of simulators (or games, however you feel you need to refer to the program), then the franchise will not fail like some predict that it will. It will decline in popularity just like FS 2004 and FSX did, and get cheaper in the stores. And some of you will in turn buy it at a cheaper price, because you would have justified that to your self somehow or another that it was ok for cheap, but not for full price. Then Microsoft will react to your boycott by counting the money from the last release, regardless of if it sold for full release price, or decreased on-the-way-out price (which still = profit by the way), and then evaluate what the selling price for FS12 will be. And the cycle will go on and on.

So we should buy even if it's crap? Not saying it will be, I said "even if", mind?

Twisted reasoning, yours.

That and... what you say MAY have a grain of truth... in a market with no alternatives. Look around. Alternatives to FS, or Flight as it may be, DO EXIST.

Keep one thing in mind in software development....the programs are not made with longevity in mind. Programs are written to sell for profit, to a market that decides that it needs a newer copy of the program. Some are happy using older versions (who still runs office 2003?), while others like free ware (who runs Open Office?), and others like the newest version and could care less about the old expired and unsupported versions (who runs office 2010?).

So we should sacrifice OURSELVES to the high altar of OTHERS bank accounts, no matter is the software answer to our requests or not?

Moreover, we should buy REGARDLESS of our need... only because they took an afternoon off now and then to cobble together something THEY need we should buy without taking into account our requests at any levels?

Talk about twisted.

Longevity is not the matter in discussion, here. FUNCTIONALITY of Flight is.

So quit your griping about Flight, and what it will and won't be. Those that design it know for a fact that they will sell copies, and that there will be detractors to the new program. There always are detractors.

So, what you say is: Resistance is futile. You WILL be assimilated.

I can't speak for others, but for what regards me, not until my credit card is MINE.

And for those that threaten to jump to other programs (xplane, etc...) the developers of those other programs depend on your negativity to get your dollars.

And on what do Flight's developers depend to get the same, then?

Resignation?

Always about the dollars after all.

Sure... but one thing is DESERVE them, to DEMAND them is just another thing.

And what if they sell to another development company, or suddenly decide to jump ship and change their philosophy on game design? What if the driving market force isn't all of us and our desire for free stuff, but it's 14 year old kids with short attention spans and their own credit cards? Have you ever thought that way about how a software company decides what the next game should be like?

Sure I did... that's why personally I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THAT POTENTIAL INVOLUTION.

They want my money? Better for them to deserve being paid.

If you like FS2004....keep on keeping on. If you like FSX....see you in the virtual sky. I like that version myself. If you like flightgear, so be it. In the meantime, how about we all quit belly aching about what an unrealeased program can or can't do.

Personally, I think your reasoning above bases itself heavily on willing suspension of disbelief. As I see it, we ALL have alternatives still.

Be it ever so clear, if you read ALL my previous posts you'll see I am still moderately hopeful, but after the repeating of FS2K, five years ago (only definitively WORSE, as you can use FS2K with hardware sold in 2005 with not even half the problems people have using FSX with today's hardware), I've become and remain cynical.

I am all about waiting and see what will happen, but at the same time, I am all about a "plan B" as well. Because, if you WANT something, you better DESERVE it, and not hide behind marketing logics.

If they REALLY want to involute their software to satisfy people with shoot-em-up logics, it's ONLY NATURAL they will lose the ones that do not have that mindset, no?

If they really want to become power freaks and dictate all you can do with a thing you bought, it's only natural that someone used to the freedom of customizing of the old program structure will NOT follow.

The ONLY power we have is to vote with our wallets, refusing to pay for what we do NOT agree with... and you are practically working against this last power of ours... and you SHOULD be one of us too. Get your act cleaned up. You can do whatever you want with YOUR money... and so do we.

Wow. I really have beaten off more than I can chew reading that one . But you do make sense.

[hyperpep111]

Pegger, your reasoning is sound.

No one is holding guns to our heads to force us to buy the product.

Some people just want the World for $19.99.

just out of curiosity, why ARE most products form comercials 19.99?

And one way I think of things, if it's actually worth buying, it shouldn't need a commercial.

I think it's just psychology. If you walk into a store and see a fruit for 9.99 and another one which is exactly the same but is 10.00 which would you go for?

[BrandonF]

Pegger, your reasoning is sound.

No one is holding guns to our heads to force us to buy the product.

Some people just want the World for $19.99.

Pegger's reasoning makes sense. Strategic Retreat is just beating all that was said to death for having some bad experience with Microsoft in the past, I'm sure.