ils landing quesitons

[Pappy44]

i have done a bunch of ils landings, but I can never seem to get it to land at the slow speed the manuals recommend.  For instance, 737s land at 140, but I can't seem to get the AP to keep it on the glide slope at anything less than 156.  If I go past flaps on the second setting, it always goes below the glide slope.

Anyone else exp this?

What is the VORLOC button on the AP for?  If you are using AP to navigate on the gps, am I right to assume you would have the gps switch on, plus the VORLOC?  I tried with the HDDSEL button (like on the 747), but it wouldn't follow the gps course.  Switched to the VORLOC and it worked.  Not sure if I did this last time or not, but it seemed strange.

Also, last night, I was flying into Ohare from Lambert in the shamoo 737 from this site.  I was told to turn right to 065 and maintain 7000 till established (never been told to stay that high going into ohare...thought that was weird).  I was landing on 9r, meaning there would be a right turn onto the localizer.  I had the app, HH, nav setting, alt hold, AP, and speed hold all set.  ILS freq in the nav1.  Started getting the beeps from the localizer, and suddenly the plane made a left hand diving turn.  I noticed the HDD and ATLH buttons were turned off.  What is up with that?

Dunno, just seemed to have all sorts of problems yesterday with AP that I hadn't encountered before.  Thoughts?

[Nexus]

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2 ... 1111322151

(For FS 9 though, but covers the basics...not to sound judgemental, but you seem to have missed some vital parts)

[Pappy44]

well, since i linked that very post in another post to someone else, I don't think I have missed anything at all.  That is how i learned to do my ILS landings.  I had the plane set up exactly that way, and it didn't function the way I expected, thus my post to find out why.

That post also doesn't talk about the VORLOC button.  The AP display looks different than that one, and that is why I asked about it as well.

Not sure what vital parts I have missed, since I listed what I did and it is identical to that article, so if you see something that I missed, please tell me, cause I don't see what I am missing....again, that is why I made this post!  :)

[Nexus]

VORLOC is the localizer or VOR track function of the autopilot in a 737 (Yes even in the real deal)
For whatever reason, the panel in FS 2002 and FS 9 did not have this button, but instead slaved VOR and LOC tracking to the "NAV" button.

The panel in the tutorial is based on an older 737 (developed in the 80's), whereas FS X 737 sports the looks of the 737NG, which entered service in the late 90's.
However, both the older 737 and 737NG has the VORLOC button on the autopilot panel in real life.

[Pappy44]

hmmm....that goes along with my thinking then as I went to my meeting...ok, so then for the 737, when on approach, do i need to have the app, vorloc, AND hddhld buttons?  That would seem to make sense to me...the app is obvious, and the vorloc button would like the nav1 setting for the ils, and the heading hold button would hold the heading until the localizer is found....is that right?

sorry if i was short in my last post...frackin work is stressing me out...lol

[Brett_Henderson]

I'll skip the usual (suggesting you master and understand all this stuff in a nice, slow 172 first.. then a Baron.. etc... and have it all be second nature before flying big, fast jets)(and have mastered flying the ILS by hand before letting the autopilot do it)... ooops  

Once you engage the approach button, everything except the speed-hold should be off (I don't think you can turn the APP button on without it cancelling other functions on most autopilots).

And... letting the autopilot fly you right into the ILS intercept isn't a good idea either.. more times than not it won't "catch" it (that might be why you dove and turned). You need to be a little low and all but lined up before you engage APP.

The shortcomings of some add-on planes (panels and flight dymanics) can be a problem too...

[Pappy44]

[quote]I'll skip the usual (suggesting you master and understand all this stuff in a nice, slow 172 first.. then a Baron.. etc... and have it all be second nature before flying big, fast jets)(and have mastered flying the ILS by hand before letting the autopilot do it)... ooops

[Brett_Henderson]

I've flown ILS so many time (for real, too), that I take some stuff for granted... That's the benefit of having it all second nature.

As for FS ATC.. sometimes you just gotta ignore bad instructions. You'd have to be pretty far out to be low at 7,000 feet.. lol

I'll just do a quick synopsis of how I land tubes:

As I near the airspace, on ATC vectors (approach plate on my lap), I'll have the whole thing already done in my head. After the last instruction (cleared for the approach..etc.), the autopilot gets turned off and I  soften the intercept angle on my own (like I've done many time, real life). I've never had sim ATC give my a silly altitude to maintain, so I'll skip that...  Once established, APP is engaged and I'll monitor airspeed, flaps, etc until about 100 agl, and then turn APP off.. flare and land.

As for your weird turn ?  If you're letting the autopilot fly you right up to the intercept (by  the nav/vor/loc function (depends on the autopilit)) ... it would be kinda like letting the GPS fly you right to the airport.. when it reaches a a certain point, it will fly wild circles trying to stay on a course that's already ended... Make sense ?  Once your on vectors to final, it's best to be hand-flying.. especially in the sim, and especially with ad-on planes.

[Pappy44]

[quote]I've flown ILS so many time (for real, too), that I take some stuff for granted... That's the benefit of having it all second nature.

As for FS ATC.. sometimes you just gotta ignore bad instructions. You'd have to be pretty far out to be low at 7,000 feet.. lol

I'll just do a quick synopsis of how I land tubes:

As I near the airspace, on ATC vectors (approach plate on my lap), I'll have the whole thing already done in my head. After the last instruction (cleared for the approach..etc.), the autopilot gets turned off and I

[Brett_Henderson]

Yeah.. sim ATC does ask weird things at times.. ya just gotta fill in the blanks yourself. If you transition from enroute, to vectored final, intending to fly a published approach, they don't come back and tell you to "expidite this or maintain that"...

I re-read your first post. Wanna make sure I understand it..  You were flying toward the intercept with all those functions turned on ?  (I'm skipping abbreviations from here on out)  The "heading hold"  and  the "nav hold"  and the  "approach hold"  were all turned on ?  That's not even possible on most autopilots. For example.. activating the "nav hold"  de-activates the "heading hold". "Nav hold" is for tracking either a VOR radial, or GPS course. Heading hold is for tracking the magnetic heading dialed in on the auto-pilot (not the dialed in course.. that's for VORs and ILS and for making the HSI jibe with the GPS (when flying GPS/Auto-pilot)

I think there was some sort of conflict..  At the time you intercepted, the auto-pilot had THREE things trying to tell it which way to fly. A dialed in heading, a navigational heading (VOR or GPS) and a runway heading (because all three were turned on). You should only have one of those three turned on. Maybe two (I've never let the auto-pilot switch from intrercept course to final course .. will it really just switch on its own, with more than one directional function activated) ?

I'm gonna go read that other tutorial... see where it conflicts with what I'm saying..

[Pappy44]

no, you have it right...now that i think about it, i think i did have them all on...but i am not sure...i know on the 747 i need heading, alt, speed, and nav setting, plus app on for it to work...i think i might have had either the heading or the vor on with the app, but not both...i have been able to have both the vor and the heading on at the same time, but not with the APP...you probably aren't supposed to be able to, but maybe there is a flaw in the ap on this plane?

[Brett_Henderson]

Yeah.. it has to be a flaw. If you have the "heading hold" turned on, that makes the plane fly the dialed in heading (or heading bug on smaller planes).  The "nav hold"  (or NAV or LOC depending on the auto-pilot type) makes the plane track either a VOR radial (selected as "course" on the jets and selected by the OBS knob on smaller planes) or makes the plane track a GPS course (when the nav/gps switch is set to GPS).  The "approach hold" makes the plane track the localizer and the glide-scope... regardless of what course is dialed in.. But it is handy to have runway heading dialed into the course (or the GPS course dialed into the "course" so that the HSI will agree with your heading). That part is moot when your flying a plane that only has a directional-gyro, as the OBS is your "course" over on VOR1.

Briefly...There are three directional holds. 1)heading  2) approach  3)nav/vor/loc (whatever that autopilot calls it).

If you're flying just a heading.. only the "heading hold" should be on.    If you're tracking a VOR radial.. only the "nav hold" should be on.    If you're flying a GPS course.. only the "nav hold" should be on (and the nav/gps switch on gps).    If your on final and established.. only the "approach hold" should be on...

Now.. another thing.. if you try to fly an auto-pilot, ILS approach, with the nav/gps switch still set to gps, that would be a problem (and could also have led to your wild turn).

[Pappy44]

nope, that wasn't it...i know to set the gps/nav to nav.  The only difference is that VORLOC button...i guess that i need to give it a shot again tomorrow and see what happend...going to play poker tonight...thanks for the help!

[Pappy44]

update:  Landed at KC INTL without incident...well, other than that damm crosswind that hit right at decision height, but I made a nice nosewheel landing out of it....erm...uh....nm...

VORLOC was NOT on when I intercepted, but the HH was.  Same way I had it set up before, so I don't know what went wrong.  I am going to say it had to be that the controller brought me in at 7000, which was above the glide slope...but then again, that doesn't explain why it didn't intercept the ils.  AP will still intercept the ILS high, it just won't establish on the glide slope.  

Gremlins I guess....

[Pappy44]

Ok, new problem, but I am thinking now there might be something wrong with my FSX...I am climbing out in Air Force 1 last night, just like I always do.  Have the AP set for the alt (FL360) and 1500 ft climb/min as usual.  All of the sudden, the airspeed drops way off, and the plane pitches straight up trying to maintain the ROC.  I had the game saved a few min back, so I reload, and the same thing happens in the same place.

I had real world weather on...could that have just been a HUGE head wind?