IFR Flying Question

[jnigeld11]

Im getting a bit frustrated now, so I guess it's time to ask for some guidance! Seems everytime I try an IFR flight, I can't make the approach for landing as I wind up way past the destination airport and so I disengage the autopilot and have to fly around to try and get back to some type of approach at the destination airport again. I follow all of ATC's instructions, but by the time I get the "established on the localizer" thing from ATC, I'm nowhere near the assigned runway approach at the destination airport. I have read various information concerning IFR, ATC, approach, etc and I think I'm employing the information correctly, but the same problem keeps happening. Is this a known issue with FSX at present or am I just an "Idiot Pilot"? any guidance or "flight lessons" would be much appreciated!

Regards,
VFR-for-now-Nigel

[Brett_Henderson]

I haven't done much "filed" IFR flying in the sim lately... but I never had the problem you mention. Firstly.. ATC doesn't tell you that you're established; they ask you to report to them when you're established on final. What they do, is clear you for the approach after guiding you reasonably close... Then it's up to you to "establish" yourself and report that to the tower. Then.. the tower will clear you to land. Cleared for the approach is not a landing clearance. It's usually your last contact with ATC before you contact the tower.

What I'm explaining here is a mix of real-world stuff and sim stuff.. but they're pretty close.

I'm gonna go fly a filed flight later and will report back..  :)

[Mobius]

I've had the same thing happen only once.  I'm not too sure why, but ATC gave me vectors, then finally cleared me for the approach when I was so close to the airport that I intercepted the localizer about a mile and a half from the MAP at 2500 ft AGL, which didn't work out too well.  I had tried to stay farther out, and I had tried to descend before I was on course (::)), but ATC yelled at me, so I had to try go missed and try again.  But every other time I've had ATC vector me correctly.

I'm not too sure why it happened...

[DONTREADMYUSERNAME]

okay, do you know how to use ILS? If yes read on, if not read this (http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2 ... 1111322151) When ATC says "established on the localizer" they really mean "Are you on the ILS?"

Now, when you create your IFR plans make sure you select high altitude or low altitude airways. I find that this is the easiest. When you are about, oh lets say 50 miles out ATC will start giving you vectors for the approach. Before you are established on the localizer you will be at around 2000ft going a little less than perpindicular to the runway heading. FOLLOW ATCs instructions! it may seem like there taking you to Timbuktoo, but they are almost always spot on. I have more than once went agianst what they told me and I got lost. Once you are established you can follow the ILS in for landing or do it visually.

The vector ATC gives you just before they telling "established on the localizer" may seem like it is totally wrong but if you follow it, it works! Also you may pass your desired airport to correctly line up on the correct runway in use at that time.

Hope this helps

[reider]

Heres some food for thought...

(1) Nine times out of ten you`ll probably approach one end of the runway but continue to the other side and `come around` for landing.  You can check this by selecting the fpl button and seeing the different parts that are vectored for the approach, look at the Garmin map and you`ll see this brings you in from the opposite end.

(2) Rules of ILS, it mainly works 7-15 miles from the airport but there is a little leeway.  You need to have everything setup correctly by about 14 miles.  Read as number (3)

(3) ILS frequency correctly set?  Nav1 selector or square button on the comms radio set? Course heading set?  Around 15 miles away?  Can you hear the morse code bleeper from the airport? NAV/GPS selector set on NAV?  Approach Hold set?  Runway number set in Garmin?  Approach activated in Garmin?  You must maintain the last altitude given by control, this means you are under the glideslope as intended, until the Altitude Hold comes off automatically under the auspices of the AP.  THIS IS YOUR CHECKLIST....

(4) First of all the Heading Hold should go out and the aircraft begin to turn and line up automatically.  At around 3nm from the runway (not 3nm from the external marker) the Altitude Hold should go out, the plane seems to perceptibly dip just a second or two before it.

(5) At or around this point you could save it as airportname Approach, you could do a few of these from different airports to get some practise in.  Then if anything fouls up you start where you left off and correct it.  Do some saves before you add the ILS settings and some after.

(6) Its a good idea to find a smallish airport with a simple approach to practise at.  I use EGNJ Humberside for this as I know you go out to the river Humber where the bend is, bridge to your left, cross the river, line up with the bend and your heading direct for the runway.

Reider

[Brett_Henderson]

OK.. everyone stop ..lol !

Jets are NOT the plane to be flying when you're learning this stuff... and if you get the urge to look at a GPS, remove it from the panel.cfg... take the autopilot out while you're in there..

[jnigeld11]

Many thanks for the "flight lessons" all! Instead of twin engines and jets, I think I'll go back to the single props and practice some more...guess I surely do need it! I knew I'd get some usefull information here!

Regards and Thanks,
Hope-To-IFR-Land-Soon-Nigel

[Mobius]

Like Brett said, if you're just learning, it's best to learn in the 172.  Something really helpful is to use the approach plates for whatever airport you need.  If you need approach plates, go to http://www.airnav.com/airports/ and type in whatever airport you want (in the US I think) and scroll down to the "Instrument Procedures" section to find the approach plates for the airport.  For example, THIS is the ILS approach plate for runway 18 into Madison, Wisconsin, and it will tell you everything you need to know to fly the approach correctly.  If that's a little too overwhelming, you can check out the VOR 21 approach into Madison HERE to check out an approach that's a little less complicated.  One of the most important things I've learned so far getting my instrument rating is to always be a couple steps ahead of the airplane, if ATC is vectoring you to the approach, make sure you have the correct NAV frequencies dialed in, and make sure you have an idea of what ATC is going to tell you to do.  Also, try to memorize any course bearings and altitudes, as well as the missed approach procedure so you don't have your eyes in your lap during the most critical phases of the approach.  It can seem overwhelming at first, but you'll get it eventually.  I don't think there's a single person who goes through instrument training and doesn't get overwhelmed at some point or another.

[reider]

To me its all so much tosh!  Fly small planes, turn off the GPS and ignore ATC is a real recipe for disaster.  People make there own decisions, whatever you do is up to you.  I was already flying single engine planes, multi engine and airliners when I decided to try out ILS approaches.  So glad I did, the individual components are easier to find in an airliner.  I went back to the small planes after the event.  I use ATC as it mirrors real life, you wouldn`t expect to fly blind into an airport then, nor should you now-wether the MS version of ATC is good or not.  This is modern day now, planes use GPS, pilots in RL use GPS, so should we.

Going forward, not back, Reider

[Brett_Henderson]

Absolutely use GPSs... but NOT as you're learning basic IFR skills. You need to master getting around by VOR/NDB before taking the easy, GPS route. Same with the autopilot. It's a wonderful tool, but shouldn't be used to fly an approach until you can fly it flawlessly by hand.

I don't suggest ignoring ATC when you're learning. I said that when I fire up the sim tp keep my instrument scan sharp, I don't always use sim ATC.. I already know that part of the drill and don't always have time to be vectored around for 15 minutes.

Hey Mobius...did I read that right ? have you finished your instrument training and are rated ?


Edit..  And yes... download (or buy) approach plates... study and understand them too..  And if you're trying to fly the jets realistically, learn how to read and use the published arrivals and departures. With a little help from someone who knows this stuff.. some study on your part.. the sim can get you 1/2-way through Instrument ground school and well into understanding practical, instrument flight.

[Brett_Henderson]

edit edit..  ironically.. I'm heading out in a bit here, to fly this approach (in a real plane)..

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0704/06258V28.PDF

[Mobius]

Hey Mobius...did I read that right ? have you finished your instrument training and are rated ?

No, sorry, I'm only a quarter of the way through it.  I should hopefully be done sometime this summer, depending on how much I can get flying with summer school.

[jnigeld11]

Many thanks again to all! I'm trying all of the suggestions...they sure do help...got a bit closer to a reasonable IFR approach / landing with props! Guess I just got ahead of myself and a little impatient by going right to the "big birds"! It's great getting advice from those who actually fly! I'm currently attempting to get into a local aviation / flight program and Flight Simulator is helping me to get a bit of a "heads-up"!

Regards,
Nigel

[reider]

Approach plates from the net are great, but a quick lookup is nearer to hand.  Just use either the map facility or the inbuilt map in the Flight Planner.  Make sure in both instances all icons are green at the top of the map window so all the parts are showing.  Get your destination airport to the centre of the map and keep pressing the + zoom.  Select the airport, press ok and it will tell you

(1) If the intended airport has the ILS system
(2) All the runways, ILS Frequencies and ILS Headings
(3) All comms radio frequencies

Reider

[Brett_Henderson]

Yes.. that works, but again, I'm going to suggest how to go about this stuff with learning it all realistically in mind. There is a wealth of information on an approach plate. The method in which you're expected to enter and fly the approach sans radio contact; Minimum altitudes; VOR radial intersections FOR those altitudes and/or  initial/final approach fixes; decision heights and visibility minimums; procedure turns (very important) and DME arcs; timed descents to backup the glidescope; missed approach procedures (the sim is wonderful for learning hold entry and flight, in winds aloft (the flight analysis tool prob saved me $1000 in training))...You get to actually DO the "Ts" ...  Turn, Time, Throttle, Tune, Twist, Talk, Track. You'll start to understand why the FAA long ago approved desktop simulation for up to 10 hours of your instrument training (I know..  MSFS is not approved, but trust me, it's even better than the approved software)..

For example:  There are some ILS approaches (and virtually all non-precision approaches.. ie.. VORs and NDBs) where the descision height and missed approach point are marked by a VOR intersection. You're not only chasing the localizer/glidescope, you've got the VOR and appropriate radial dialed in on Nav/VOR 2. You'll know by the approach plate when it's ok to get down near descision height, and know that by the time your VOR 2 CDI centers, you had better see the runway, else execute the missed. The sim maps do not provide this information. .. nor do they supply the missed procedure, or tell you where to hold and in which direction to fly the hold. To fly a realistic instrument approach, you must have that plate in front of you.

Also remember that most airports do not have ILSs... So it's a fun learning experience to master the non-precision stuff too. If you think it's satisfying to see that runway appear where you expect it after flying a great ILS approach.. just wait til you see it after wrestling your plane through poor visibility and onto a runway via a VOR or NDB approach.

Pull the fuse on that GPS