mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

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mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby bombardier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:58 am

hello to all:

after reading the post of speed brakes and spoilers. I just remember something. when I took american airlines out to reno, nv, as the plane was finial filght approach still a few thousands of feet up and so many miles out the pilot would raised what I would called speed brakes on top of the middle of the wing onboth sides. going full speed according to landing procedures once he raised those speed brakes up you can really feel the plane slow down. I just do not understand a little piece of steel abvout 4 feet by 2 feet can slow that plane down that quick by it does. once the wheels touch ground then the reversal engines start up. and at that time the speed decreases and the speed brakes close.

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Re: mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby OldAirmail » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:43 am

It's all smoke and mirrors by the airline industry.

We look at that 2 by 4 sheet of metal slowing the plane down, and say, "WOW! These guys must really know what they're doing"


But it's like I said - smoke and mirrors. They WANT you to look at that.

Because while the passangers are looking at something like that, they don't see the dragon pushing against the nose of the plane to slow it down. :D
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Re: mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby PhantomTweak » Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:57 pm

little piece of steel abvout 4 feet by 2 feet


Ummm....Actually, the spoilers, which are what you saw, are aluminum....small detail, really, and don't confuse the size of the item with the size of it's effect on the airflow over the wing. I don't know whether you noticed or not, but all the spoilers do is ruin the lifting effect of the wing ( they "spoil" the wing's lift) causing a much more rapid descent, the actual slowing is done by the flaps/slats and reduction of power from the engines. Modern Passenger jets don't really have "speed brakes" as a rule, altho most Military fast movers have them, in one form or another. Remember, once those big tubes stop pushing the jet forward, they can be a huge drag source! Also, and I don't know if this is still proceedure or not, I've seen 4 engine passenger jets use the reversers on the inner two engines, #'s 2&3 in the normal numbering scheme, to rapidly slow the aircraft or prevent an overspeed condition during rapid descents.

once the wheels touch ground then the reversal engines start up


Again, not to quibble over small details, but the "reversal" you notice is just the engines redirecting their thrust forward rather than aft, thereby slowing the craft with the same delta V ( change in velocity) they provide at that power setting during acceleration, like during takeoff. The spoilers are still extended, now fully, making sure the plane stays hard down on the runway (no bounces!) so the wheel brakes can do their job too. Once the plane slows past a certain velocity, the spoilers are no longer needed, as the wings no longer provide any lift to speak of, so they are retacted, the reversers are disengaged, and the flaps raised for taxiing. From then on, the wheel brakes are adequate for speed control of the plane.

Please note also that most passenger jets utilize the spoilers on the outer end of the "down" wing during rapid roll events, such as making tight turns at low speeds, or during turbulence, to compensate for the sudden rising of a wing, when the ailerons just don't have quite enough authority to give the desired roll rate. Again, spoil the lift on a wing slightly and it drops like a stone, and bingo, rapid roll. Their use is normally controlled by the ADC (Air Data Computer) which schedules them according to altitude, desired roll rate, IAS, etc etc.

Most planes these days are fly-by-wire, which means the pilot tells the computer systems what he wants the plane to do, using the control inputs, and the computers all get together, talk about it for maybe a millisecond or so, they they move the control surfaces as needed to accomplish the desired maneuver.

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, and I realize a lot of confusion comes in from different languages, rough translation, lack of terminology knowledge and so on, but I grew up in the airline industry (daddy was a pilot for both the Navy, and then United for a LONG time!), I had MY pilots liscence for a short time (long story :( ), and I worked on Marine F-4's, so I'm pretty familiar with terminology and proceedures, and I'm just trying to clear the fog a little bit :D

Because while the passangers are looking at something like that, they don't see the dragon pushing against the nose of the plane to slow it down.


I always wondered why the windows are designed to prevent forward or aft vision!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby OldAirmail » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:11 pm

Yup. It's a fact. :D
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Re: mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby bombardier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:40 pm

hello phantom tweak:

thanks for all the information, I learned alot from you.

you have said something that I thought of on that plane american airlines the plane had while it was in mid flight the flaps at the trailing edge of the wing made a "v" shape meaning the flaps I saw one section of the flaps went down like it suppose to but another flap open up forming a "v" at the same time at the trailing edge of the wing. its like a big shark with its mouth open getting ready to eat some small fish.

this flap was not on top of the wing it was attached to the flap its like one flap went down and the other flap went up both the same time. I hope that clears that up some I think I repeated my self if so it was to make a point thats all.

about reverse engines on no. 2 and 3 engines the plane is going about 300 to 500 mph lets say to reverse engines at that fast it would tear the engines off the wing you are going forward motion and in a couple seconds you got the engines reverseing themselves. I would think that kind of torque it will brake a shaft or something like that. I guess I do not know the physics of the engine.

about the spoilers, yeah, the plane american airlines landing at reno, nv the airport is surrounded by mountains so what this pilot did was what you said he decrease speed and then used his spoilers and he made a tight sharp banked turn over the mountains it was a steep downward bank turn and then just over the top of the mountains he then drop the plane talking losing altitude fast that was fast because right in front of us you can see reno airport we are still 8000 feet up and need to come down to flight approach level in "x" amount of time. yes the pilot had to drop the plane like a rock other wise he will over shoot the airport at about 10,000 feet.


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Re: mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby PhantomTweak » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:26 am

On reversers: a jet engine is essentially a tube. It takes air in at one end, and it pushes out the back, after adding energy in the form of burned fuel. this pushes the engine, and thus, the entire craft forward (hopefully!). The engine has, at the front a series of compressor stages, and after the burner cans, a series of turbines that use a little of the newly added energy in the hot exhaust gasses to turn the shaft they are on, thereby turning the compressor stages. very simple and darn efficient design, basically, one moving part.

ANYway.... when they activate the reversers, all they do is put what is essentially a shallow bowl behind the engine, with redirects the thrust going aft, forward. Imagine that while blowing your breath out you cup your hands before your face. Notice that all that air is now going towards you rather than away. That is how reversers work. The basic operation of the engine remains the same....air in the front, then out the back. HOWEVER! That air is now being directed foward, in the same direction the aircraft is travelling, rather than aft to push it along. This will obviously have the effect of SLOWING the aircraft rather than pushing it along. Thus, doing this in the air only requires the reverser buckets ( their actual, official name) be strong enough to stand the forces of the air blowing against them as they open and close. There isn't any starting of another engine, or changing the way the engines are turning. they keep right on blowing air out the exhaust end, just the same as they always have, but now you have placed an item behind them to redirect that exhaust forward.

in modern, "hi-bypass" turbofan engines, there is a huge fan at the front of the engine, in that big cowling, and the engines get a fair portion of their thrust from this fan/cowling arrangement, called a "ducted fan". The fan is turned by the turbines and on the same shaft as the compressors. The reverser buckets are essentially built into the cowling, so you don't really see a bucket close behind the engine like you used to on the older, non ducted fan type engines that didn't have the big fan on them. The fan thrust is redirected forward, rather than the hot exhaust gasses. Easier to design, not having to deal with the high heat, and having the cowling available as a support structure for the reversers makes life easier on engineers also.

one section of the flaps went down like it suppose to but another flap open up forming a "v" at the same time at the trailing edge of the wing. its like a big shark with its mouth open getting ready to eat some small fish.


Those are called "eyebrow" flaps and ensure that the airflow over the wings AND flaps remains correct. the main flaps curl under so much, the airflow over them would be disrupted, or they would "stall", without the eyebrows. When the trailing edge flaps open or extend, the trailing edge of the wing is now missing a large section of it's structure. The eyebrow flaps make sure the air still "sees" that portion of structure, and keeps flowing properly down and over the extended portion of the flaps. IE: the air is deflected upward slightly at the aft portion of the wing, THEN continues down along the flaps. That upward area of flow is what "simulates" the missing trailing edge area the flaps normally occupy.

Sorry, I tend to be a wind-bag. Ask me the time, I'll tell ya how to build a clock sort of guy. I do try to stick to the stuff I actually do know something about, at least! :lol:
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Re: mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby bombardier » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:59 pm

phantom tweak:

I like your answers. I have learned something again thanks for the explanation. once again your answers are full of detail and a good explanation thanks for that.

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Re: mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby PhantomTweak » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:09 am

After holding several "training" jobs while in the Corps one learns a VERY little on how to teach :D

Glad I could be of assistance! So many, here and elsewhere have helped me, I'm glad to do what little I can to pay it forward :clap:

Have a great time!

Pat~
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Re: mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby garymbuska » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:27 pm

As far as reverser,s go what was described above is true when talking about the modern turbo fan engine.
But the old B737-200 and all of the B727,s MD88,s MD90,s used a little different method they all had what kind of looks like two hands coming together
One could actually back up a MD 88 on the ground using reverse thrusters.
But you better think twice about doing that with a modern turbo fan engine.
The first thing that would probably happen would be you would blow out the glass in the terminal in front of the gate and God help anyone standing in front of the aircraft and beside it is not consider safe to use the reverser,s that way bad on the engine from what I was told by a Mechanic
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Re: mentioning of speed brakes and spoilers

Postby bombardier » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:07 pm

hello garymbuska:

about the reverse thrusters on a turbo fan engine at the airport you said it will brake the glass at the terminal. I would agree, that would create a little breeze in the terminal. talking about a bad hair day. no need to dry your hands in the bathroom stick your hands outside near the broken glass and let the wind from the thrusters dry them for you.

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