Headwinds become Tailwinds

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Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby Papa9571 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:36 pm

I have run into something that defies logic. My airspeed shows 313 kts and my GPS shows 556 knt ground speed. Nice tailwind but when I fly the return route it's the same, tail winds and all. ???  I am flying the default 747-400 from Chicago Ohare to Toronto using realistic settings and weather. I have tried changing weather but still get the same effect no matter what settings I use. My last download was PAI installer with Mesaba and  American Eagle and the Airbus 380 with new United Airlines textures (from this site FS2004 Civil Aircraft page 93). No other changes have been made to the system. I have tried the Airbus and it is affected as well.  
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby beefhole » Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:20 pm

313 KIAS is REALLY fast for a 747 at altitude (at MO.85 at 40,000 ft it's probably more like 265 kts), but maybe what you're experiencing is not a tailwind, but a crosswind. That would explain the behavior both ways.
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby beaky » Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:20 pm

Did you look at the Weather settings on the return leg to confirm that the sim had actually reversed the wind on you? How about your enroute altitude... the same?
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby Papa9571 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:35 pm

I set the winds to 0 at all altitudes and still experienced this flying both directions iwth the 747. I did not try to turn around and return in the flight (maybe I should have). I tried cruise altitudes from 17,500 to 29,000 with the same results. I have also just completed the same flight using my 727-200 and real weather and noticed crosswinds during climbout and at altitude (23,000) but the difference between IAS and GPS speeds was less that 30 kts.

I dont know what the cruise should be or what that works out in Mach number for the 747 at 29,000 ft but I suspect that I have an issue somewhere with the cfg for both the 747 and the Airbus 380. I have a cd that contains Data Becker Jumbos for FS2k but I hesitate to try and compare he cfg files for these and the 747 in FS9 because i dont know if they are compatable other than AI. Any other suggestions? I am out of ideas and have no more hair left on my head....wait....found one....OUCH ;D ;D
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby Papa9571 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:46 pm

This is a screen shot after takeoff from O'Hare with winds set at 0 for all altitudes. Notice the difference betweek KIAS and GPS Groundspeed. I did notice the IAS display seems to swing back and forth while speed increases sort of like an old speedometer on a car.


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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby Nexus » Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:02 pm

What's abnormal with that picture?
I'd say it's quite normal to have a 40kts differential between the GS vs KIAS readout at 8200ft?
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby Papa9571 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:05 pm

With 0 winds? And it is exponential the higher I go. With all of my 737's and 727 those numbers are almost identical in the same situation.
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby beefhole » Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:30 pm

Hmm, I understand now. You don't seem to undertand the difference between IAS and GS.

KIAS is the ram airpressure into the pitot tube-your speed through through the air, not accounting for wind, instrument miscomputations, etc.

GS is your actual speed over the ground. The ONLY time your KIAS will match your GS is when you are on the ground, taxiing, in a zero wind condition. GS will ALWAYS be higher in a large jet (not true in smaller props).

Happy flying ;).
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby Nexus » Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:36 pm

I re-created your scenario with the default 744
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby Papa9571 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:08 pm

Checked by me and both of my sons....winds at 0 for all altitudes.

And now I am really confused.........

The Mach number, as I undestand it, is the measuement of the speed of sound. And for a given Mach number your IAS will get slower with altitude. If we were comparing mach numbers with airspeed i would agree. But I am comparing apples to apples here (unless I am so confused I am just blabbering). I also understand that airspeed and ground speed are two different measurements. Ground speed as shown in the GPS is a measuerment of how fast you are travelling in reference to the ground and is not affected by winds. Airspeed is a measure of how fast you are moving through the air and is affeceted by the movement of air. So if you are flying at 250kts IAS with a 39 kt tailwind your ground speed, at least in FS9, should be 289kts IAS. But I have quadruple checked my winds are set at 0 at all altitudes so my IAS and GPS ground speed should be the same. Thats what I show when I fly any of my 737's or 727.  

And therin lies my confusion...which is right, my 737 or 747 ...and did I pull all of the hair out of my head for no reason? ??? ??? ???
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby beefhole » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:12 pm

No, no...

What I said in my first post holds true. WINDS DON'T MATTER, GS will ALWAYS ALWAYS be higher than KIAS when you're in the air.

It's just the way the world works. :D
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby Papa9571 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm

So which of my aircraft is wrong..the 737 or the 747?
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby beaky » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:54 pm

No, no...

What I said in my first post holds true. WINDS DON'T MATTER, GS will ALWAYS ALWAYS be higher than KIAS when you're in the air.

It's just the way the world works. :D


This isn't going to help papa with his problem, but that statement is false. If you're showing, say, 100kts on your airspeed indicator, and you're flying  within a mass of air that is moving in the opposite direction over the ground at a speed of 10kts relative to the ground, your speed along your course- your groundspeed- will be 90 kts. That will be confirmed by GPS, by observers on the ground, whatever you like.
 Likewise, if you are moving at 100kts IAS in the same direction as that mass of air ("wind"), say, on your way home, and that wind is blowing at 10 kts, your groundspeed will be 110 kts.  If the wind is not aligned precisely with your course, it won't precisely equal the sum of or difference between your airspeed and the wind speed, but you get the idea...it's just like being in a rowboat on a river. You're rowing upstream towards your destination, and making good progress despite the current.. Drop the oars and what happens? You start to slow down (relative to the shoreline). Wait a sec, and you'll start going backwards! Turn your boat around, and without any rowing at all, you'll still be moving forwards (just going the other way). Add power (rowing) and now you're really moving! If you substitute plane and wind for boat and current, you see it's the same situation.
 It is even possible to fly backwards along your intended course- at a negative groundspeed, so to speak- if your airplane is slow and the winds are strong.
As for papa's problem, it seems to me like a problem with part of the sim program itself. You shouldn't always have a tailwind... my experience in real life and many  stories told to me by other pilots  have led me to always assume that the time you save with a tailwind on the way out on a round trip will almost always be taken away from you on the way back, unless there's a major weather change over a large area, like a passing front. A tailwind on both legs of a round-trip is  so rare as to be considered practically  impossible!
Then there's the fact that you set the winds for zero...
As for crosswinds, they almost always factor in as headwinds. What I mean is: even if the wind is square to your course, you'll probably see a reduction in groundspeed. The precise reason for that is best explained by an aeronautical engineer, not me...
I can't confidently suggest a fix, papa: you should at least check for this anomaly with other aircraft. Maybe you need to fiix your 747 files, or...?
Hey, did you hit Shift+ Z  to show altitude, heading, and winds? Try it if you didn't.  If you see windspeed indicated there, despite setting no wind in your weather scheme, then there's definitely something screwy!
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby Papa9571 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:07 pm

Rotty.....Thanks for the sugggestion. I will try it tomorrow after work. And at least I have something else to try. I dont know if my 747 and 380 files have problems or the fault lies deeper.

And its good to know that I understood the differfence between ground speed and airspeed.

As for the light at the end of the tunnel I hope its not a 747 landing at midnight with me standing in the middle of the runway....now there is a nasty thought ;D
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Re: Headwinds become Tailwinds

Postby beaky » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:16 pm

LOL!! Ever see the clip of the guy standing on the runway just behind a landing heavy? Whooosh! He goes for the ride of his life!!  Wonder if that can be found on the Web...
Hope my very wordy explanation helped clear up the whole GS/AS thing. It's so simple, it's confusing! ;D
Good luck with that glitch... I've got a little gremlin of my own I'm trying to fix (OK, I'm trying to just live with it): On all my aircraft, with throttle all the way up, my tachs will not show full power. Airplane seems to fly like it has full power, and once airborne, if I dive it'll go to redline, but... it's weird. Still not sure if I'm getting correct performance. But I can still do a short-field takeoff, so I'm not going to risk disaster trying to fix it right now. And no, it's not the prop pitch.
 Let's face it, computers hate all of us  ;D.
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