boeing 707 from the download section crashes

[GC707]

Would it be possiible to delete your included INS gauge and replace it with the Civa Delco Carousel package available @ simufly.com?  Also, I have in my panel.design floder here a few very nice sperry a/p gauges. would it be possible for me to remove the one you included and add one of my freeware sperrys in a pop-up window?

The gauges in this panel are specifically designed to work as a complete set, so it is unlikely that this will work.  I wouldn't recommend you do anything just yet anyway as I working through the issues brought to my attention by 'Nav'.  By the way the problem with the HDG hold is simply that the mouse click area is too far down - try clicking about a quarter of an inch further down.

By the way, what's wrong with my included INS gauge?  I may fix it if I get time...

PS. Will this panel work in FS9 installed in an HJG 707?  I don't care if the visual models aren't quite there, I don't fly from outside the a/c. I just want to hear American, Delta, or United being called to me by atc.  Thanks

I used the HJG BOAC 707-336 myself until I decided I wanted the classic 707-436 with its Conway turbojets and ventral fin.  Since no such model was available for download I had to gmax it myself...

You will need to change the labelling of the fuel tanks in the aircraft.cfg as explained in the panel manual, and deactivate the aircraft's autothrottle.  (As FS refuses to use fuel in any MAIN tank unless the corresponding AUX tank is empty, I had to designate reserve tanks as MAIN - crazy, but blame Microsoft not me.)

[RollerBall]

GC, I think you've done a pretty good job here the more time I have with it.

I take the problem about switching to autopilot view and having to fly blind shortly after takeoff, one of the most critical times in the flight.

Now I have to say that with respect I don't quite share your views about realism and there being a need to look down as in the real plane. As soon as you have clickable icons and stuff reality is already suspended I think  ;)

And it only takes a moment to glance down and back in real life with no hand movements whereas in the sim it takes many seconds to click, spot the control you're trying to change, change it and click back. Plus you're making many more hand movements than in real life.

OK, so where am I going with this? What I've done is a very simple solution which I think suits very well - I've just put in a simple pop-up that contains the stuff you need just at that time. Take a look here.





You have a new avionics icon above the screen that's totally unobtrusive and the pop-up which is clearly visible and easy to use fits neatly into the panel and only masks a few gauges that are not too important just at that time.

It's increased my enjoyment of the package and who knows, later on I might go even go on and read your manual and try a few cold engine starts and things.

Thanks for all the work you put into this package for us.

And well done again  :)

Roger

[Nav]

GC, thanks for sorting out the 'HDG' - as you say, clicking point is just a bit down and right.

I researched the 707 - as far as I can tell, it had the same (Sperry SP-50) autopilot as the Comets, but I can't be sure it had the pitch/speed linkup I mentioned.  So probably best to leave things as they are.

However, that leads to a possible problem with RollerBall's sub-panel, because in its suggested position it covers up 'N1'.   At present, after take off, with gear and flaps up, you are trimming the nose higher and also reducing power to keep the speed down to say 250 knots.  You need N1 in view at that stage, otherwise it's easy either to reduce power too much and fall out of the sky, or to leave it too high and get into an 'Overspeed' situation.

I don't know how sub-panels work - but to my mind the important thing to have in view is the autopilot part.  You usually have more time and leisure to set the NAV frequencies and the INS, and you can always 'pause' the game anyway - maybe they could stay on the overhead?

A possible alternative would be to bring up RollerBall's full sub-panel, but locate it in the top left of the windscreen?  Not an area you have to look through that often?  Or, ideally, you might be able to reposition some gauges and put the really key part, the autopilot panel, permanently at the bottom of the main screen - that's more or less where they used to be in real life?

Still feel that some sort of readout of the rate of climb/descent is essential.  'Counting clicks' from an unknown starting position, while also flying visual at low altitude, is not practical - what you need to be able to do is to set it quickly, with certainty, to say 2,000 a minute, and then concentrate on just the one variable, the power, to keep the speed within bounds.

Got it up and cruising at 30,000 on my last try - flies nicely, well done!

[GC707]

Looks rather similar to the modification I am working on, but my autopilot popup lacks the INS panel, and is activated by a button at the bottom.  I also added an R button to the Captain panel and an L button to the F/O panel to replace the confusing "WHEEL WELL FIRE" switches.  Now I'm working on making the gyro instruments operate a bit more realistically.

I guess the reason I didn't have the problem with the autopilot is that I tended to put the aircraft into a climb, activate the autopilot from the keyboard (Z), and only THEN switch to the pedestal view if I wanted to turn.  The next version will have tooltips on the autopilot indicating rate of climb/descent, which will hopefully make things easier...

[RollerBall]

[quote]

However, that leads to a possible problem with RollerBall's sub-panel, because in its suggested position it covers up 'N1'.

[RollerBall]

Right-o. Have now had a chance to give it a whirl.

Overall a very good IFR experience I think and a nice feel to the FDE. However, although the 'click' method of cranking in RoC works in the climb it's really unworkable in the descent and approach phase.

The workload is more or less impossible even with my pop-up panel. Bearing in mind that you are cranking in heading changes (on the HSI) and controlling airspeed manually, the additional workload of trying to control rate of descent by clicking on the AP thumbwheel to make precise altitude changes, switching altitude hold in and out, is really a non-starter.

Unless an actual 707 pilot of the old school says this is how it was done (which I do not believe - it would have been much too dangerous), sorry, there has to be an AP link to altitude.

A while back an old Cathay Captain contacted me about my Kai Tak scenery. I'll try to find his email address and if I can I'm sure he'll be able to give us some really valuable information.

[Gary R.]

About the INS Mr. Carty.  It is a fairly realistic unit.  However, the CIVA INS is a subroutine in itself. It takes realism to the edge by even mimicking common fault codes that plagued the real world Delco INS units.  Also, INS computers of that time included two primary units.  An Msu, and the Cdu which the Cdu is what you have replicated.  I realize it would be a project in-itself to develope your INS gauge to the same level of system functionality that the CIVA package is.  However, many add-on developers have created panel.cfg's to make use of the CIVA 1.20 package.  The liscense for that package demands it stay an independant download and never uploaded anywhere but simufly.com.  that's why people create panel.cfgs for people who have downloaded the package to use. There are cfg's for the default airliners and for a number of downloads including the RFP 747-200, Richard Probst's 727 panel, the HJG DC-8, and a certain complex A-300 panel.  Just a suggestion although the other guages in your 707 panel may need to be re-configed to work with the CIVA gauges. Please understand, we are not complaining or being cruelly critical.  We all love this panel. I loved your FS2002 version and flew it often.  I and I believe the others here are putting so much into this thread because we see a freeware panel that could easily shame many payware models and we are feeding back to help make it the most outstanding it can be.  We appreciate all you do with this project and hope there will be a GC 707 panel for all FS versions for years to come.

[Gary R.]

Hey Rollerball.  Its a darn shame we can't get ahold of John Travolta.  He owns a Quantas badged 707 andhas the ATP and type rating to fly it. He would be a good source of info.  But, for all we know, his 707 could well have been updated and modernized in too many ways that wouldn't give us any practical knowledge for a vintage model.

[RollerBall]

[quote]Hey Rollerball.

[Nexus]

[quote]

However, that leads to a possible problem with RollerBall's sub-panel, because in its suggested position it covers up 'N1'.

[Nav]

Thanks for the information, Nexus, didn't know that.

Not sure it would solve the workload problem though.  Have you tried flying the aeroplane?

RollerBall, glad we're not disagreeing too violently over the 'readout' - in our 'old age'!  Don't particularly want a 'tooltip', a dial with 500-foot notches would do fine.

Still can't believe that Boeing would fit an autopilot that would hold a given rate of climb regardless of airspeed.  In safety terms it would HAVE to be the next best thing to suicide.

I've emailed Boeing and put the question about the capabilities of the 707 autopilot.  I don't suppose they'll bother to reply to some FS nut, but if they do you guys will be the first to know...........

The other question is, flying IFR, how on EARTH do you settle at a given altitude with GC's present setup?  Normally, you'd watch the altimeter and push 'Altitude hold' as you reached the height you wanted.  But how, pray, do you do that if you can't see the altimeter and the autopilot on the same screen?

Oddly enough, Rollerball, my 'practice IFR takeoff' is also at LHR - Runway 27L, though.  Got sick of the girl saying 'You are 300 above your assigned altitude', though, and not being able to correct it!

[RollerBall]

[quote]

Still can't believe that Boeing would fit an autopilot that would hold a given rate of climb regardless of airspeed.

[GC707]

I wonder if the autopilot wheels actually control pitch angle rather than vertical speed?

At times I wonder if I should really bother with this panel - will anyone really want it now that the vastly superior Captain Sim Legendary 707 is available??  

[RollerBall]

George,

Do not despair. You have created an excellent freeware panel here. Don't even think about giving up on it at this late stage when you're so close to having what is a visual and functional masterpiece. I would be very proud of this if I'd created it and quite rightly to.

We are discussing fine points here and we wouldn't be bothering if we weren't right behind you trying to make something that is already very good excellent.

Roger

[GC707]

Thought I'd give you a blast from the past - this was my first attempt at a Boeing 707 panel.  Same layout as my current panel but for FS95.  Ahhh, the "olden days" of machine-code reverse engineering of GAU files.....