Manual Landings

[supernova45849850l]

Hi All
Since my last poll I have been desperatly trying to land manual. I tune the GPS to the ILS runway I am landing on and try to follow the glideslope and runway heading on my own, no autopilot. It seems to all go well right up to like 5 miles (or less) from the threshold, I will be like 1 or 2 degrees off course and I will land off the runway.

Trying to rudder is a joke becuase this banks the plane and at that altitude, you cant afford to bank the plane. I thought the rudder should move you side to side, no bank you?? I am using numpad 0 and enter which is rudder, right??

Any help would be great. I know this these "how do I land " topics are getting long in the tooth now but I can land APR hold and land GPS NAV hold, its no fun and boring!!

Thanks

[beaky]

Not 100% sure if you're using GPS right... you can't "tune a GPS to the ILS". You can sometimes choose a published GPS approach , but ... Some confusion there, I think.
As for using rudder on approach, the rudder makes the nose go back and forth. Yes, this will cause some banking, but if you're banking more than you want, you can use opposite aileron (to a point) to correct for that. Again, though: bank the wings to correct for drift; rudder to aim the nose where you want it to go.
If you've started out with big airplanes, I'd also suggest some practice in something smaller for a while.
Also, if you're still having some trouble with the final (manual) portion of the approach, it'd also be good to forget the autopilot and GPS and just practice landing. Set up and save a flight that begins with the final turn or whatever.

[Nav]

supernova, you shouldn't be worrying about lining up five miles out. Time enough to worry about that when you're within a mile or so. Further out on the approach it is much more important to get the speed, power, pitch, rate of descent etc. right. The bonus is that that makes the aeroplane much easier to control when you DO finally come to lining up.

Secondly, there is usually no need to use the rudder in the air - just use gentle banking to turn or 'edge over' to line up, much more controllable.

It's a good idea to save an approach flight for practice.

[willg]

what i normally do is try to be at certain altitude/airspeed/rate of descent, at a set point, once im on the glidepath at this point, all ready for landing, ill put the approach hold on, then when im just about to touch down ill turn off the AP and do the flare manually.

[supernova45849850l]

Ok when I say "tune" - wrong term sorry! I select the runway I am landing on thru the GPS so I can follow the heading and glide slope. eg. KSEA 34R (which I always practice on)

I have the needle centrered and am on the glide slope decending about 500-600 ft/min 160kts (737) and am looking good, approaching the runway the needle is still centered and I am flying the runway HDG, but When I approach the threshold I can see that I am going to land off centre (edge or even off the runway) I have the speed/power thing under control and am following the glide slope without to much pitch. If I try to rudder at the last minute the plane will just bank off too far and if i try increments its not enough! Believe me I have saved an approach and tried it at least 50 times already - just cant get it "spot on"

[Nav]

Terribly difficult to explain in words, supernova - but once you're close, you shouldn't be watching the 'needles' much at all, you should be looking at the runway - the whole of it, not just the threshold.

And, as I said, the rudder is the wrong control to use. The air is a fluid medium, an aeroplane MUST bank to turn - if you apply rudder when an aeroplane is level, it will simply 'skid' (fly sideways as well as forward) and you'll lose all sense of direction. Leave the rudder out of it and try just gentle banking - and don't forget that the 737 is a big aeroplane, it takes time to respond, give it time, and also anticipate.

Re-reading your earlier post, sounds as if you're using the keys, not a joystick, too. Personally I never got the hang of that. If that IS what you are using, my hunch is that a joystick - no need to go nuts on 'force-feedback' at first, twenty-buck two-axis ones are fine to start with - would solve 90% of your problem.

[TacitBlue]

I only fly VFR, and I find that if you just keep your eyes on the runway and forget about GPS and everything except your altimiter, VSI, and airspeed, then landing is easy. watch the PAPI lights. this may nothbe the way they really do it in a 737, but its great practice. And, once you have the hang of doing it like this, it should be no problem to go back to ILS.

[lizardofozz88]

Me thinks its time for you to get a yoke and rudder pedals. If you go to the CH products website you can look at the different styles and types of yokes they have. I have the one that has the throttle, prop control, and mixture. I highly recommend it. If you want to go with the joysticks get one with force feedback. It makes all the different. The CH products does not have force feedback because it has a spring but I like my yoke over my joystick for flying cessna's and boeing's. The rudder pedals should be the USB ones (if you have enough ports) and should allow for differental braking as well as regular rudder movement. It will take a little of adjusting to these new controls but it is well worth it if you move onto flight training in a real plane such as a cessna or piper. Go for the real thing!

[Silver1SWA]

Terribly difficult to explain in words, supernova - but once you're close, you shouldn't be watching the 'needles' much at all, you should be looking at the runway - the whole of it, not just the threshold.

And, as I said, the rudder is the wrong control to use. The air is a fluid medium, an aeroplane MUST bank to turn - if you apply rudder when an aeroplane is level, it will simply 'skid' (fly sideways as well as forward) and you'll lose all sense of direction. Leave the rudder out of it and try just gentle banking - and don't forget that the 737 is a big aeroplane, it takes time to respond, give it time, and also anticipate.

Re-reading your earlier post, sounds as if you're using the keys, not a joystick, too. Personally I never got the hang of that. If that IS what you are using, my hunch is that a joystick - no need to go nuts on 'force-feedback' at first, twenty-buck two-axis ones are fine to start with - would solve 90% of your problem.

I agree.  That was my first thought as well.  You need a joystick or even better, yoke and pedals.

The keyboard offers absolutely nothing as far as realism in flight.  Landing an airplane, especially something as high performance as a 737 takes many quick, and fluid control movements.  The problem with using the keyboard is that it moves a control surface (slowly) and then requires you to move in the oposite direction until the control is even reset back to neutral.  This takes considerable time...precious time.  In order to land an airplane, especially the jets, you must stay ahead of the airplane.  The keyboard function just does not make that possible.

If you ever watch a pilot land a plane from the cockpit, you can watch his control movements just by looking at the movement of the yoke.  The yoke is CONSTANTLY moving in sudden, and rather large movements.  An aircraft set up for approach acts very "mushy".  The aircraft will not appear to be moving in ways as drastic as the movement seen on the yoke.  My point is, a pilots hands are rather busy on the controls and it takes a significant amount of control to keep a plane as stable on approach as it needs to be.  This is just not possible with the keyboard.

[Nav]

Again, difficult to get over, but there's a concept called the 'triangle of forces'.

Think of an aeroplane flying level. The rudder is vertical and the elevators are horizontal. But now imagine it in a vertical bank - the elevators are vertical, and 'become' the rudder, and the rudder is horizontal, and 'becomes' the elevator.

To turn, the first thing is to use the ailerons to bank the wings. But this puts the wings into a less efficient position, so they give less lift - and the nose is liable to drop a bit.

So the best control to tighten and control the turn is NOT the rudder (which, because it is acting at an angle, would tend to force the nose down even further) but the ELEVATORS, which, because of the angle of bank, will both help the turn AND hold the nose up.

So the 'drill' for turning is put the stick over to induce a bank; then, as you reach the required bank angle, centre the stick and ease BACK on it so the elevators help the turn, and also keep the nose level with the horizon.

That sort of coordinated movement becomes second nature to experienced pilots, real or virtual. After a while you find that you can 'look' the aeroplane along, the movements become instinctive.

But you could never get that sort of eye-hand coordination from the keyboard. Aeroplanes have had joysticks or yokes for a hundred years now; and that need for coordination is the reason.

[cobzz]

is there wind???
because your desending when you enter the wnid layer
there will all of a sudden be wind and blow you off course.
Just say i am to the left of the centre line,
I will banks 5degrees to the right then give some left rudder.
You plane should fly side ways a little.
When you are just about to line up on the runway
level out and release the rudder. Words well for me  ;D

ty

[MattNW]

First of all like the people above said you need at LEAST a joystick. Microsoft included key maps for flying with just a keyboard but that's a laugh. Yoke and rudder pedals are preferable but extremely expensive. Don't go for cheap ones either. They aren't worth even the low price you pay and you'll be disappointed fairly soon and end up getting something better. Save the added cost and get a good yoke/rudder pedal setup.

If that isn't in your budget then get a good joystick. I got a saitek X-45 for about $80 which is less than I paid for a junky stick before that. Yes, when I say go for decent quality, I'm speaking from experience.

Whether you use Force Feedback or not is your choice. The cheap stick I got had FF and it seemed to just fight everything I tried to do and wasn't realistic at all. Maybe a better quality stick would have felt better but I'm happy with my X-45 for now. Next time I get something it'll be a yoke and pedals.

Finally PRACTICE WITH THE SMALLER AIRPLANES FIRST. FS is fairly realistic. Maybe it could be better but it's close to reality. NOBODY can just jump into an airliner and fly it. Airline pilots go through years and years of training before they even touch the controls of a big passenger jet. You need to do a mini version of the same thing to really become proficient in FS. Otherwise you are really wasting your time.

Start with the Cessnas and work your way up. This way by the time you get into the big jets you'll have the basics out of the way and can learn to handle the delayed power and response of these larger aircraft. There just isn't any compensation for experience and to get that you need to work your way up.

[Silver1SWA]

Finally PRACTICE WITH THE SMALLER AIRPLANES FIRST. FS is fairly realistic. Maybe it could be better but it's close to reality. NOBODY can just jump into an airliner and fly it. Airline pilots go through years and years of training before they even touch the controls of a big passenger jet. You need to do a mini version of the same thing to really become proficient in FS. Otherwise you are really wasting your time.

Not necessarily.