Simviation Forums

Hi all.
You know; I love helicopters; but the 206b in FS9 is pretty much impossible to fly; so I spent the day tinkering. Turns out a fix was ridiculously easy; I altered the MOI numbers in the .cfg file to read thus:

;Moments of Inertia
empty_weight_pitch_MOI   =  30000
empty_weight_roll_MOI    =  30000
empty_weight_yaw_MOI     = 75000
empty_weight_coupled_MOI =     0

There are a few other adjustments as well both in the complete .cfg and the .air file; but this is the core - went from crash, crash, crash in one flight to hovering without effort 5 minutes later. The aircraft flies and handles quite well also.

If anyone's interested; could you please try plugging in these numbers and seeing how it works for you?

Thanx.

Just curious: do you know how the ACTUAL JetRanger flies in real life, or are you just making it easier for yourself?

Did you also try turning down the realism settings?

Regards,
Stratobat

As a matter of fact; yes I do know how the real Jetranger flies.
I also know that in FS9 the only reference you get is visual; with an extremely limited width of field, and you get neither the feel nor motion. Not to mention the small; almost insignifigant fact really that home joysticks aren't made to replicate rotarty-craft flight; the combination of which which makes hovering extremely difficult; if not impossible for the average person.

And no; I don't fly at reduced settings.

In other words; since one of the most common complaints I hear concerning FS9 is the difficulty of flying the Jetranger; I spent a few hours of quiet interest trying to do something about it so that normal, ordinary people could enjoy it as well and are not willing to put 100+ hours into intensive practice.

If you don't like it; don't try it.

I by no means meant anything was wrong with what you did.  In fact, I commend you.  It is good to hear that someone is taking an interest in correcting the M$ mistakes with rotary craft, as there are very few that know how those aircraft actually fly.

Thanks for the update, and I'm sure it will come in handy.  In fact, I would post that with as an addon for the FS9 section.

Ender:
No probs; it's easy to misunderstand the tone of a post sometimes.

My intention is, of course, to make this and other modifications to the existing Jetranger to assist newcomers (and anyone else) in flying the pig; and release them as a complete patch.

The adjusted inertia values smooth out the action of the bird; they make it easier but most certainly don't make it easy. The other adjustments will include resizing the panel so it ain't so bloody big, reducing the torque the craft recieves in flight, and fine-tuning the control rates to make it both smooth and responsive.

It's just about done; I just need some feedback on how many people like how the ship flies with those different inertia values; since the rest hinge off them.

If, in fact, you DO know how a real Jet Ranger flies, how about giving us a detailed description of how the FS9 model, with your new MOI settings, compares to the real thing?

Cal

Hostile I'm sorry you have misinterpreted my post just as you did with Ender Baron's first response. I guess you didn't like our challenge to your claim to know how a real Jet Ranger flies. But, that's your choice.

The inertia values you've listed completely removes what realism there is in the Jet Ranger's handling characteristics, especially in hovering.  Moreover, these values have the undesireable side effect of moving the helicopter's axis of rotation to a point approximately 50 ft below the aircraft. The affect on the visual clues while hovering is quite misleading. I agree with the MS Aircraft Contrainer SDK (FS2004), when the MOI's are set high, the helicopter actually becomes more difficult to control.

I'm still interested in seeing your comparison to the real thing. I'm sure others are too.

Cal

In fact if anything - the FS9 B206 is ridiculously easy to fly. You can hover it by simply increasing collective - unlike the real thing which requires constant control on cyclic & pedals.

It would indeed be VERY interesting to have another real chopper pilots perspective on this. I go out nearly weekly in a friends R-44 & occasionally in a 206 & have been flying the choppers in FS since FS98.

With default settings the 206 is extremely easy to fly & land gently in any spot or rooftop in any direction. It just takes a bit of practice.

As a matter of fact; yes I do know how the real Jetranger flies.

In what capacity do you know how the 206 flies? & like Cal above - this is meant as a genuinely interested question  - by no means 'hostile'

I've posted on this topic previously: My cousin has over 4000 hours in light aircraft of all types. He's been flying helicopters, daily law enforcement, for nearly 15 years. Most of that in a Bell.

He's as hooked on simming as any of us and highly recommends it to learn the theory and awareness of aircaft handling... intrument scanning.. airspace awareness.. all that stuff... except when it comes to the helicopters. I don't know if it's the limitations built into the "MSFS flight model" or that helos just need more visual and G-force sensory inputs, or both... But (he says) it's definately a learnable skill (flying the Bell in the sim), like any other video-game, however, nothing near as close to real.. as fixed-wing simming.

I'll forward this thread to him (and help him modify the Bell's MOIs)(he's not too computer savy) .. see what he says after trying it..

I deleted my post because after reflection I considered it impolite.

I have not once stated my intention is to make the sim 206 more realistic; just easier and more fun to fly for the average sim pilot.

To all those who seem so mortified by this: I don't care. Why should I? You go do what you want; I'll go do what I want. If you find flying the 206 easy; I'm happy for you. I personally do not; nor do many; judging by posts that appear on this forum from time to time. I was looking for second opinions; not debates. Nor was I aware the mere idea of changing the 206 - which is apparently so perfectly designed the sim community reacts in outrage to the very idea of changing it - would be such a divisive issue. Once again; if you don't like the idea of a modification; don't use it.
Yeesh.

OK; still plugging along.
I've finished what I think is a good balance between fun and realism with the 206. I'd still greatly appreciate any feedback; so I've made the files available on my website for a brief bit if anyone wants to try them out.(Brett;  your cousin in particular as described, would be most helpful. If, as you say, you are going to forward this thread to him; perhaps you could point him to the files and see what he thinks of them.) I've tried to change as little as possible; just smooth out the control sufficiently to allow for more stable manoeuver at the hover. Please try them out; my website (and please don't laugh too hard at it; it's just a Geocities site - I'm just learning. ) is in my profile. Go to the site; go to the 'Bio' page; I've added the file right down at the very bottom away from the rest so I don't confuse the heck out of anyone not SimV-related reading it.

Now on to other points; re the 'hostility' of those posts.
Your intent may very well not have been hostile. However; what we think often differs greatly from how it looks to others on the page.
While perhaps not hostile to you; it was definitely challenging - as you yourself stated. If you can tell me why an unprovoked challenge is not hostile; I'd be interested to hear the answer.
Neither I nor anyone else needs to prove qualification to mod FS9. One does not need to be a light aircraft pilot to modify the C-172; nor does one need to wear white-collar wings to adjust the 747 if that's what he or she desires. Therefore your challenge - based solely on the single line "As a matter of fact; yes I do know how the real Jetranger flies" is unnecessary and not germane. Had you wished to know my experience on the matter; asking politely would have been a good way to do it; and most likely would have yielded better results.

Now on to other points; re the 'hostility' of those posts.
Your intent may very well not have been hostile. However; what we think often differs greatly from how it looks to others on the page.
While perhaps not hostile to you; it was definitely challenging - as you yourself stated. If you can tell me why an unprovoked challenge is not hostile; I'd be interested to hear the answer.
Neither I nor anyone else needs to prove qualification to mod FS9. One does not need to be a light aircraft pilot to modify the C-172; nor does one need to wear white-collar wings to adjust the 747 if that's what he or she desires. Therefore your challenge - based solely on the single line "As a matter of fact; yes I do know how the real Jetranger flies" is unnecessary and not germane. Had you wished to know my experience on the matter; asking politely would have been a good way to do it; and most likely would have yielded better results.

Not being a sim-heli-pilot (I gracefully bow to anyone who can even cause the default helicopter to take off smoothly), and definitely having experience on misinterpreted posts - I can only offer my personal take.

Helicopter performance in flight simulator has been a sore point for helicopter enthusiasts.  For too many versions (and I would be safe in including FS9), helicopter performance has been hard-coded into the sim, so any helicopter using the default Bell as a basis, remains a modified Bell, no matter what tweaks are done, to a much greater extent than any normal airplane based on the defaults.

While a certain amount of skepticism rises up when someone presents an improvement, the posts, and seeing from whom they came, struck me as genuine " tell me more and show me why" rather than blatantly cynical attempts to discredit you.

Yes, they may have sounded " challenging"  but take it as pained responses from poor souls whose hopes of accurate helicopter dynamics have been have been thrashed much too often.  (" Accurate Helicopter Dynamics" is a topic with a passion right up there with the Mac vs PC argument - one treads lightly in those circles)

Update:

I've been working with my cousin re: the modifications..

Conclusion:

It does make the hand-eye-coordination "video game" (simming a copter) easier, but still nowhere close to fixed-wing simming, as far as learning actual aircraft handling.

For what that's worth...

Personally I think that the default JetRanger is relatively easy to fly, but as with all choppers it is easier to fly in the spot plane view as you get more visual references than from the cockpit. In a real Jetranger  (many hours as passenger and a few minutes hands and feet on controls) you get lots of other feedback through "seat of the pants" and much better vision.
The really difficult helicopter to fly in 2004 is the R22, which is a shame since it is a really nice model. I have been waiting for someone to mod the aircraft file to give an easier (and more realistic ?) result. There was an add on R22 for 2002 that was much easier to fly.

For the R22 also read the add on Hughes 300 .the latters aircraft file seems to be based upon the R22