New Forum Survey: Homebrew Cockpits (see below)

[Smoke2much]

John,


If the various parts of the cockpit are "glass"  ie displayed on screen I guess you could make your entire cockpit modular and add and take out the various bits as and when you need them.  For example if the thottle is in a box setup you can model this as just the four throttles for a 4 engine craft and also build one of the same dimensions with just two thottle levers.  For a cessna you could build a box of the same dimensions again but put the mixture and gear levers on there as well.

I hope this is clear and I understand that it is probably just added complication but I believe that once the setup is complete you may want more from it than just a large jet simulator.

Will

[JBaymore]

Will,

The "glass" aspect of mine will be for the main flight instrument displays.  To do it, you just mount monitors on a shelf.  In front of the instrument display monitors is what will be the main "panel"..... a sheet of material with cutouts that match the size and shape of the gauges that are displayed on the monitor screens in smaller windows.  (Not one gauge per monitor.... multiple.)  So when you look at it........ it LOOKS like there is a bunch of illuminated gauges sitting there..... when in fact is is the monitors behind the panel mask.  It is amazing at how real that can look.... particluarly with aircraft that use many VDT's anyway.

Then you can ALSO mount real switches and such to the panel mask that hides the monitors.

Some change around with what is displayed on the monitors would be very easy.  And if the panel mask had NO other stuff mounted onto it..... then you could put it on with something like Velcro...... and change it out easily when you wanted to "change planes".  Great idea there!

But the layout of a large jet cockpit is FAR different than the layout of something like a Cessna 172.  That whole center console alone would be an issue  ;).

Yeah... I suppose you could make that modular too.  Lift it in and out and sub another unit.  But what a pain to be taking the simulator apart all the time.

I guess the "werid" C172 feeling in the "heavy" cockpit with the center console, the large overhead panel, and all the switches and gauges might not be as far from "reality" as sitting at a desk pushing keys on a computer.  Might still feel more like a plane.  It will be interesting to see how I feel about that situation once this whole project of mine is completed.  At the moment I tend to fly mainly large multi-engine jets...... the smallest maybe the default Lear.

The simulator cockpit certainly won't feel like "military"  ;).  Except maybe a KC-135 or something.

My current working plans in the CAD program fit this whole thing into a footprint exactly 5 feet wide by five feet deep.  Took a LOT of planning to get it down to that  ;).  That was a primary design goal for me.  That is all the space I can "steal" here in the house reasonably.  

Junker car bucket seat for the pilot's chair, three 15" monitors for the glass cockpit part, and starting out with one monitor for the exterior view...... eventually going up to three.  A active center console with throttle quadrant, and an active overhead console.  Cockpit modeled up to about the centerline just to the copilot's side edge of the center console.

Still very much in learning and planning mode.

Did you check out that F-15 site I listed a couple of posts ago?

best,

.................john

[JBaymore]

Will,

Oh...... I like that idea for the modular "drop in" throttle modules you thought of.  I was planning on puttin all the electronics right in the "box" ..... but now I may just output the poterntiometers and switches to plug in connectors on the box so that the electronics sit inside the center console.  Then you just plug them in and out.

Hum........ good thought.  

best,

...................john

[Smoke2much]

That F-15 site is awsome, I would prefer something more generic and a good deal cheaper though.  My current problem is one of space, I live in a 2 bed flat so there isn't really space for my computer, let alone a cockpit or flight deck set up.  The modular idea came from an idea I had a few months ago to replace the keyboard with a "panel" of switches and lights etc but no guages.  My plan was to use an old keyboard as we've already discussed and work around that.  I thought that for differant aircraft Icould have differant bits to do the various functions and the modular idea was born.  Unfortunately I'm more of a thinker than a doer and the plans are still in my head :-/

I'll get around to it one day.

Will

[JBaymore]

That F-15 site is awsome, I would prefer something more generic and a good deal cheaper though.


Yeah.  I didn't take all that long to explore it so I didn't see if there was anything aboiut money discussed in some obscure place.    I wonder if somewhere on there he has listed any cost figures for the project?  I REALLY wonder what that nose end of the F-15 alone with a lot of the avionics and controld still in there cost him  ;)?

Can't have been cheap to get in the first place or to MOVE to the home location.

best,

...............john

PS:  As to being a "thinker"....... you are well on your way to setting up a simulated cockpit.  PLANNING it the first part.  And if you plan it well...... you save yourself headaches and money.  ;)

[JBaymore]

First Test of Throttle Quadrant Construction

Spent some time this evening taking one of the numerous designs I've been playing with off of "paper" in the CAD program and trying to turn it into a real 3-D rendition of some sort  ;).

Here is an image of the VERY unfinished four engine throttle quadrant idea for my developing simulated cockpit design.  

It is set in width to coordinate with the width of the GoFlight panel mount instruments (7 1/4").......... so that it will align well with them if it is mounted in a "rack" that also holds some of them.  It is 9" long.  The flat section just to the rear of the rounded part will hold a few switches that will be mapped to engine control functions.

This is still VERY early in the design revision stage..... some changes will still be made to even the basics.  But this now gives me a "feel" for the idea.

[Smoke2much]

It may be unfinished but it looks the part already.  As soos as my rudder pedals look reasonably presentable I will post a picture on here as well.  Currently there is far too much string involved though.

Will

[JBaymore]

Will,

Thanks.  I can sort of envision what it will look like when it is finished at this point.  The main housing will be a grey that I will use for the background of the whole cockpit, the lever arms will be black, and the knobs will be white with numbers.  The screws will be painted but exposed.  That grey background will allow me to use black lettering for all the instrument labels in the cockpit.

At one point I was thinking that I wanted to be able to backlight all the control text labling.  Figured I'd use acrylic plastic for all the panel facings and such and then use computer graphic flim on the back of them to give the color....with the lettering itself in a clear so that light would show thru.  Then pop a bulb behind it and voila..... backlighting.  Then I realized all the technical problems and time consumption with that whole idea...... and decided that trying to do that would be NUTS .

Instead, I'll just install some oblique panel lights on the face of the panels.

I understand the "string" thing.  The mechanical linkages are the real trick in all this.  ;)  It helps to have ripped apart a few things when you are a kid.  ;D


Yeah... please put a picture or two of your own efforts up.  I'll be interested in seing your pedal design.  I'll keep doing the same.

Maybe we can stimulate some others to try their hand at this kind of stuff  ;).  


best,

...................john

PS:  I am worried that this discussion thread is getting "lost" down here and with the current title   .

[Smoke2much]

I'll post some shots later then.  Maybe we could get this moved to hardware, we know where it is and that forum is slow moving so it won't get lost.

Will

[JBaymore]

Has anyone taken the force feedback circuit control output from a FF joystick and adapted it to drive other larger servomotors?  

I imagine that the output direct in the stick device itself is driving just about the maximum amperage that it can drive....so direct connection is likely not a possibility.  But with the right interface circuit..... it should be able to drive larger servos to match the forces it delivers to the joystick.

I am having an idea about putting some more tactile feedback into the flight experience ....... possibly affecting the pilots seat  ;).  Full motion of the whole simulated cockpit is getting a bit much for my skills and budget, I think

best,

..................john

[JBaymore]

Will,

In my mind, this "simulated homebrew cockpits" idea has many aspects.  Some is hardware....... but is not really restricted to COMPUTER hardware...like the existing Forum.  Some IS computer hardware.... but probably specific to interfacing issues with non standard equipment.  Some is software.... but not GENERAL computer software..... EPIC drivers and I/O card drivers and such.  Some WOULD BE related to general software.  Some is payware........ but some is freeware.  And so on.

That is why I see a separate Forum under which "threads" would serve to define the discussion of a particular situation.  Just as it is in other forums.  Then if it is related to Simulated Cockpits...... whether it is hardware, software, commercial programs, freeware open architecture code, cockpit environmental issues, construction techniques, or whatever...... you know right where to post a question or look for an answer.

If this thread and /or discussion gets moved into "hardware" as a single thread...... a lot of the discussion doesn't really "fit" on topic.

I hope we can get some more people here to fill out the survey.  At the moment there is a very positive response...... but it is a limited sample pool.  Even the one "out of your mind" was posted in jest  ;D.  The thread is active..... as active as a number of other Forum Sections...... but I don't know if it is active enough yet for Pete to consider giving it Forum status and file library space.

I want to wait a while before deciding if I think this is a good idea to pursue further and get back to Pete.  I don;t know "what it takes"... to have a section set up.  I want to give it time to "shake out" a bit  ;).  But there is a lot of mixed topic stuff getting meshed in here under one message thread that would be hard for people who don;t check this "General" section regularly to "find" based on the original message header.  This is no longer a poll about the subject per se'.... but a subject discussion.

If we were to now start dividing the messages on this general topic into different existing Forums...... first of all we have to decide WHERE they go..... and also then the "momentum" gets spread around and diluted a bit.   And if this is a topic you are interested in....... you never know WHERE to look for studff related to it.

Anyway.... this got long.  Sorry.  I look forward to seeing your pedal pictures.


best,

.....................john

[Smoke2much]

John,

Whilst I agree with many of the points that you have raised I still feel that Hardware is the most appropriate forum as the net result is a large piece of hardware.  Yes it does require software to run it but this can be likened to drivers, if I was a new member looking for info on a homebrew cockpit I'd probably look first in the homebrew section (*hint hint) and then in the hardware section if it wasn't there.

Anyway here are some pictures of my rudder pedals.  They are not my design but rather a copy (and I feel enhancement) of a set I found, I'll do a search and reference it later.

1)  This one shows the basic construction and string I was talking about.  The base joystick (Logitech Wingman) has been stripped and screwed firmly to the base board.  String runns from near the tips of the pedals through the brackets to the joystick.  The lengths of drinking straw act as "lubrication"



2) This is to show the gate hinges that I used as the actual pedals.  The lengths of wood are essential as strengtheners, just the weight of your feet resting on the pedals will bend the hinges in no time.


3) This shows that the joystick is deflected when one pedal is depressed. (ie the darn thing works!)


Refinements required are the finishing work (ie painting and sanding of rough edges.  The joystick needs enclosing in a box and the wires need protection.  The string also needs replacing with bicycle brake or gear wire for more positive control.

As you see them the pedals cost me about

[JBaymore]

Will,

Thanks for the pictures.

That pedal arrangement is ingenious!  NEVER would have thought of doing it that way.  Pretty darn simple and straightforward.  And it wouldn't be that hard to adapt the basic idea to a "parallelegram" mount that would allow the perdals to slide forward and backward.

Hum...... ya' got me thinking here.  


Yesterday I had an "aha" moment about constructing and connecting pedals.

Instead of needing a whole extra usb input card into the computer and such for a separate joystick for the pedals....... if you ALREADY have a twist action joystick..... the rudder axis is already there.  So you just disconnect the potentiometer that runs that rudder axis in the joystick itself...... find the value of it...... and run a wire to a remote one mounted in your homebrew rudder pedals and hooking back to the point where the original pot was attached.  Pretty simple.

I also thought about trying to deactivate the spring centering in the little mini joysticks on the Axispad FX game controllers.  That would give you a couple of useful mini joysticks for something on an aircraft panel.  Like maybe mixture control.  In fact they sort of look like the mixture, prop, and throttle controls on the Cessna 172...... just smaller  ;).

I checked in the sim "Assignments: section this evening to see what functions are available to assign to "axis" (infinite variable potentiometer) control.  Besides the obvious ones........ you can also use pots to control the spoilers, propeller pitch (for each of up to 4 engines), mixture (for each of 4), right and left brakes (toe brakes!), flaps, and trim.

So if you can get two of the Axispad controllers onto the usb buss connection...... you can potentially control 8 separate axis functions....... in addition to the normal joystick ones.  So that would allow you to cover 8 of the 11 potential ones.  Three Axispads (total cost under $60.... plus the home-made stuff to run it) would let you control all of them for up to four engines.  Not to mention adding 36 momentary push buttons that you can assign to anything you want.  Not bad.

This is all interesting stuff.  And all this not getting anywhere NEAR stuff like EPIC cards.  


Best,

...................john

PS:  Changed the layout of my throttle quadrant this evening to include both spoiler and flap control levers.

[JBaymore]

Will,

Is that a USB joystick... or one connected to the game port?

Is your main joystick USB or game port?

What OS are you running?

Thanks.

best,

................john

[Smoke2much]

My main joystick is USB and the rudder pedals are plugged into the game port.  I'm running XP Home on a P4 1.7Ghz beast.

I would like to stress again that these pedals are not my origional design.  My design included 43 linkages (slight exageration)!

With the current rudders I have a spare pot (y axis).  There are also 5 buttons that came with the joystick as extension leads, I do like your idea adout the mini joysticks on a game pad looking like control handles.

Glad you like 'em.  Another useful feature would be springs to hold the pedals at "neutral" and solid links rather than wire or string.

Will