Flight simulator "cafe"?

[beaky]

Anybody have any idea what legal hurdles would stand in the way of someone building simpits running some copyrighted software by a certain large and powerful software company... then charging people to fly said 'pits? I'd imagine licensing issues would arise; royalties paid out... or??? Anybody know?

I've done a little hunting on the Web for clues, but no joy yet... not even sure how conventions deal with licensing... maybe they just agree to give credit and make sure the logo is prominent... maybe it's done on a case-by-case basis...?

Just one of those Friday daydreams, as I ponder how much I'd rather tinker with and fly my sim than do what I'm paid to do...

I've never heard of such a business, so there must be a good reason why it's a bad idea.

But if it's feasible, I'd consider it. I've thought of building simpits for sale, and this would be a logical extension... a showroom, in a way. Best arrangement would be a small commercial space, half shop, half "arcade"... charging for time on the sims would help defray the overhead for the space.



But I'd also like to be able to provide access to sophisticated "non-gamelike" sims to people who don't have the space, time, or money to build or own something like that... it would be a fun little enterprise, I think.

Last thing I'd want to do is manage a typical arcade, so it would be more of a hobby-club type thing, maybe by appointment only. No 50-cents-per-game coin mechs, no disco lights... maybe patrons would be dues-paying members, I dunno... I think I could also find a market amongst licensed pilots looking to enhance their official training, if I built something almost as good as an FAA-certified rig, but available much cheaper... for those whose wives will not allow a joystick in the home office...

Curious as to whether or not anyone else has ever thought of this, and also if anyone out there has an inheritance they'd like to risk on the craziest business model ever...  ;)

[zeberdee]

I had a go on a jumbo (747) type sim nine years ago in Yarmouth, It had a yoke,rudder pedals and throttles, not forgetting a big screen. I was the only person to have a go on it all the time we were in the arcade. I am not sure there are enough people in any one area to make it viable at a reasonable cost per use, sorry It would be som thing I would use though

[flyboy 28]

I'm sure there's something in the FS9 EULA regarding the program being used 'for personal and private use only'. We just click the box 'I agree' and start flying.

[beaky]

I'm sure there's something in the FS9 EULA regarding the program being used 'for personal and private use only'. We just click the box 'I agree' and start flying.

That's not the problem, so much as actually having a brick-and-mortar business, with advertising, etc... sooner or later it would become known what program was being used.
It would not become anything big, and MS is certainly not in the same business, but you don't want to run afoul of a company with that kind of power.... Uncle Bill has legions of lawyers he doesn't even know about...

[beaky]

I had a go on a jumbo (747) type sim nine years ago in Yarmouth, It had a yoke,rudder pedals and throttles, not forgetting a big screen. I was the only person to have a go on it all the time we were in the arcade. I am not sure there are enough people in any one area to make it viable at a reasonable cost per use, sorry It would be som thing I would use though

That sim is pretty lame... it's a game. A pretty cool arcade game, but a game nonetheless. I'm talking about the kind of scene you'd find at a simmers convention or club gathering...serious hardware and serious flying... only in a storefront (maybe).

Another comparison would be something like the Silicon Speedway, which is a chain of very cool Nascar simulators... there are several side-by-side, each with a big RP screen... you drive a real race, against the others in the room. Very popular.

http://www.smsonline.com/

Ideally, my idea would be to have something like that- maybe six or so simple open-console pits set up as generic fighters and/ or racers, running on an internal network and maybe set up for MP with the outside world. Actually, that model could possibly work as a chain of locations... imagine a massive MP network with entire squadrons of players all over the country or even the world, flying full-blown combat missions... if there was a place like that in your town, would you pay a few bucks an hour to do that instead of flying your home setup? I think the typical MSFS user probably would, unless they have a really sweet setup at home (and most don't, even if they have good computers).

There would also be one or two enclosed generic GA pits for more serious flying, IFR practice, etc... then eventually a full-blown flight deck, probably a replica of a classic airliner. I think just having a working two-person flight deck could attract quiite a few serious airline simmer types... hardly anybody has that capability at home, even the fanatics.

It's a fun fantasy, but I agree it might not be a big money-maker. The average Joe is a lot more intimidated by a flight sim than a car sim... any knucklehead can drive.

To make it really viable, it would probably require some very expensive and elaborate equipment and support, to attract real pilots and serious simmers from a wide area (we're pretty spread out), paying pretty serious money for hours... it would be a risky move with all the money required to make that happen.  

But it's an interesting idea... imagine having access to something like that- something between the arcade and an FAA-approved (and very expensive) sim-training experience.

Maybe if I win the lottery I'll open a place like that and run it at a loss, just for the hell of it.

[npbosch]

Nice Idea,

In Belgium (Brugge), there are a few guys that made a 737 on a 3 DOF platform based on MSFS. I have been in it during a whole day, it was great. They rent it commercially.
http://www.brugesaircollege.be/

[JBaymore]

rottydaddy,

I remember reading an article in PC Aviator or PC Pilot about some setup like this but solely for combat sims.  A big warehouse type place made up to look like the ready rooms and flight deck of a military base.  All the sims were networked and it was all about dogfighting.

I have thought about the viability of doing this same kind of thing in a "civilian mode" as a business.  I ran the financials a little bit to see what the scenario would have to be to make it financially viable.  The problems I came up with hinged around utilization factor issues in order to get an hourly rate that would allow the offering to price out so that there would be reasonable market appeal outside the really affluent and hard core folks like you and me.

It didn't work.  Too expensive.  Even with tiered hourly pricing to encourage utilization.  If you could get people in all those sim units for many, many hours a day, it works.  But people work, go to school, have lives, have other hobbies, have to sleep, and so on.  So you will have peak demands on late afternoons and evenings midweek, and on weekeneds.  Other times.... not so much.  To build capacity to capitalize on the peak demand periods would be expensive infrastructure........... that would sit idle a good lot of the time.  It is the ole "do you build the church for Easter Sunday" problem that many businesses face.

It is a GREAT idea....... conceptually.  Practically... a very risky one, IMHO.

best,

.......................john

[beaky]

Not surprising your legwork yielded those results.
I think the only way to make it viable would be to compromise by having the usual stupid games in there, or maybe serve food.  Or how about hot chicks in skimpy stewardess uniforms serving food? they could earn their pay in tips or selling pictures of themselves to lonely nerds...

Or... what if it also had FPS and driving sim setups? That could help... but again, that would just set the stage for the place turning into another greasy teen hangout (sorry to all my greasy teen friends... ).


Which reminds me of another Brilliant Scheme along these lines: A coupla years ago, I did an A/V install at a place in Times Square called Bar Code (an Australian-owned chain, I believe)... a combination bar/poolroom/arcade, with all the latest games, loud music, a kids' arcade upstairs, fully hyped on MTV and open 24-7. Right in Times Square- the Holy Grail of arcade locations... and the only such place open at 4:00 in the morning...
Went belly-up in record time. I was astounded. Maybe not due to lack of business, but it wouldn't surprise me that once the intitial interest waned, the tourist trade alone wasn't enough to support it.

Back to my original question, though: did you also look into the legality of running a copyrighted sim as part of a business like that? That could be the final nail in the coffin, and the most painful one... having to give the big boys their percentage, even though the whole thing would be boffo free advertising for them.

[JBaymore]

Back to my original question, though: did you also look into the legality of running a copyrighted sim as part of a business like that? That could be the final nail in the coffin, and the most painful one... having to give the big boys their percentage, even though the whole thing would be boffo free advertising for them.

The Microsoft EULA, at least as I read it....not being a lawyer.....,  does not allow the commercial use of the software.  What kind of deal they would strike is anybody's guess.  At one level they could look at it as a marketing tool for the latest version of the sim (which means that you'd likely have to use X.... and upgrade shortly after any new releases).  Or they could say "hey....you're making money ONLY with our help, so cough it up."  Hard to say.

If they wanted anything financially, it would be the coffin nail in an already likely difficult proposition.  If they added SUPPORT behind the project (like in PR and / or marketing firepower), then it might help it to be viable.

In a city of population X, how many people are serious about something like civilian aviation?  Within that demographic, how many are satisfying that itch through real avialtion?  (How many of those aviatiors will use non-approved simulation if they have to pay for it?)  Out of the leftovers from that pool, how many can afford to pay to use a sim?  Out of those, what is the level of commitment to simulated flying as compared to say, skiing, golf, and so on?  Out of the most commited of those, how much time per day, week, month do they have to apply to driving/taking public trasnsport somewhre and going flying?   Answers to all of those questions point in the wrong direction.  :P


best,

.......................john

[beaky]

 Answers to all of those questions point in the wrong direction.  :P

Yup. It's just too fun an idea to be profitable, I guess.

So.. how much you wanna invest?


I guess if I must start having pipe dreams about the sim business, I should stick to maybe building kits or selling plans.

I think after this project is done, I may clean up the design a bit and see if anybody is willing to pay for the specs and dimensions, or even a kit...

"Requires some assembly; ages 12 and up; car seat, truck cap and sheepskins not included..."

[chuckcrc]

Hi chaps
it has been done/ is happening at this place.http://www.flyaces.com/

I was thinking of building another cockpit to link the two together to have some fun with a few mates . I have thought about making simpits like the one I have for sale to others. Recently I sold my house and the real estate agent who sold it turned out to be a flight sim nut like me, and he has his PPL as well. He was knocked off his feet when he saw my pit and flew it. He reckoned he could sell then to his friends at the Aero club he is a member of. Just like a salesman eh!

For now it is a pipe dream as my new house hasn't got the big shed that I have now; much smaller but still very usable.
When I retire in 6 years from now I plan to go back to a rural property and maybe set up business !!

cheers
chuck (can't wait to retire )

   

[beaky]

Interesting... I wonder what program they're using... doesn't say. Sort of looks like MSFS with working weapons...
cool 'pit setups, too... a small dome is the perfect screen for that application.

[Hagar]

Just spotted this. I've seen some very basic simulators in various museums. The ones at Tangmere are typical & these were set up by Just Flight using their own 3rd party software for FS9. http://www.tangmere-museum.org.uk/flight_simulators.html

There used to be a slightly more complex simpit in a different part of the museum based on CFS2. Not sure what they use now but Ultimate High, where I had my aerobatic lesson, were using CFS2 (NOT FS) on two linked machines for basic formation aerobatic practice before doing the real thing.

Airbourne Aviation at Popham advertise "the FIRST fully effective flight simulator trainer in the UK that's realistic enough to be used as a serious training tool for teaching basic and advanced flying". http://www.microlightflyingschool.co.uk/simulator.html There's now a similar outfit at Shoreham & I suppose at many flying schools throughout the country. I'm sure there must be a market for this sort of thing but the museums would probably want them donated free of charge.

[JBaymore]

Hi chaps
it has been done/ is happening at this place.http://www.flyaces.com/

Chuck,

That's exactly the place the article that I mentioned above is about.  Thanks for the link.

best,

....................john